Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 13,660
# 91
02-04-2013, 09:40 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by p2wsucks View Post
Other than BO/HyTorp builds BUFFED DHCs are really the only things that can break ships and it's b/c of the frontloaded damage. If you remove that the game will drag on much more. Seriously against a coordinated premade or even pugmade see how well or poorly DCs do.
Quote:
Originally Posted by voxlagind View Post
As it stands, they're forced to balance healing around burst damage (escorts) which as result makes all the other ship classes who don't burst seem inadequate.
Healing is balanced around PvE encounters. That healing is too much for PvP without the possibility of the burst in buff gaps or against nuked targets...as p2wsucks said.

As for the other ship classes that can't burst...well, I think it kind of comes down to this:

Buff/Heals vs. Debuff. DPS waiting.

So you've got your Cruisers and Science Vessels doing their dance. Escorts thrown in to make that dance interesting - keep it moving - and to land a killing blow when it presents itself.

Say Team A calls Player X as the target. Team A's going to buff themselves while trying to debuff Player X. Team B's going to try to buff Player X, heal Player X, clear any debuffs. Team A's going to try to clear buffs, heals, and keep debuffs going. Maybe Team A was just setting up Team B with the idea they're after Player X...they're really going after Player Y. They switch targets while Team B's goodies are on CD while having kept most of their own goodies in reserve. Bam, they pop Player Y and then press their advantage while the other team's down a player waiting on respawn.

If it's a case that everybody should be able to burst - well, then everybody should be able to tank - everybody should be able to heal - everybody should be able to drop Sci goodies out there...

...and well, I suppose one could say that with the way DOFFs and passives are going, burst might be the only thing missing. So maybe it is what we'll see next...meh. So maybe there is a point to it.

We should all queue up in whatever ship we want, press our spacebar, and all our DOFFs/passives will take care of the rest. The system will roll two six sided dice...high roll wins. Yay...PvP!


"Wheeeee, this is kind of fun. Oopsie...my bad."
Fleet Admiral Geist, Klingon Science Officer
Endless, Hazari Destroyer
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,400
# 92
02-04-2013, 10:08 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by virusdancer View Post
You can build the Escort to soak the Cruiser's Alpha - but in doing so, the Escort is still likely to be able to kill the Cruiser in a quick engagement if the Cruiser is not built in turn to soak the Escort's Alpha.

Well there is an A, B & C component here. A (alpha) & B (soak damage) and you are missing C (aid someone else in soaking damage)

A Cruiser that might lack certain things to absorb an Escort's alpha most likely lacks those things because they've focused their consoles/gear/abilities on helping someone else absorb an Escorts alpha.

Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,329
# 93
02-04-2013, 10:14 AM
http://weknowmemes.com/2013/01/the-b...ying-a-healer/

I know very, very few cruiser captains (or do I even know one?) who just want to help others survive stuff, precisely because of that.
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Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,400
# 94
02-04-2013, 10:18 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sophlogimo View Post

Except it's not even remotely close to true in this game.

Good healers are the backbone of a solid team.


There are times I'm under fire in my Escort and I don't even need more than EPTS 1 + TT 1 - this isn't because I'm awesome and I'm zipping around at full impulse, it's because my healers have my life in their hands.

Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
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# 95
02-04-2013, 10:28 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ussultimatum View Post
Except it's not even remotely close to true in this game.

Good healers are the backbone of a solid team.
[...]
I believe the problem outlined in that popular meme is not one of mechanics, but one of psychology. When you play a healer, you can, at best, "not loose".
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Promote what you love, instead of bashing what you hate.
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Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 13,660
# 96
02-04-2013, 10:29 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ussultimatum View Post
Well there is an A, B & C component here. A (alpha) & B (soak damage) and you are missing C (aid someone else in soaking damage)

A Cruiser that might lack certain things to absorb an Escort's alpha most likely lacks those things because they've focused their consoles/gear/abilities on helping someone else absorb an Escorts alpha.
I can see where Fleets might do that healing doohickey nonsense...my attempts at healing in PUGs whether PvE or PvP have always left me with the desire to buy something from the C-Store allowing me to shoot members of my own team.

When you toss somebody TT1 and they thank you for the heal...yeah...um...yeah...

Outside of Extend Shields though, the other five healing abilities that can be used on somebody else are also tanking abilities.

edit: But yeah, I don't fly in Premades nor OPvP PUGmades. I don't do the healing thing while even in a cruiser. There are enough people from Ker'rat that queue to fly a tank in PUGland. They love to beat on a meatshield while ignoring the folks that are actually killing them.

FAW spam (both damage and random kill shots) and self-healing will give anybody that just gives a cursory glance at the scoreboard that you're rocking the place...when you're actually presenting the least threat of anybody on the field. Like moths to the flame, they're drawn to you...while the other folks on your team actually do the actual damage - efficient damage, well timed damage, etc, etc, etc. You're just flying around going wheeeee wheeeee...and then your team wins.

Vs. Premades/PUGmades - they either kill off the real threats first or just chain VM/nuke and I pop in the blink of an eye.


"Wheeeee, this is kind of fun. Oopsie...my bad."
Fleet Admiral Geist, Klingon Science Officer
Endless, Hazari Destroyer

Last edited by virusdancer; 02-04-2013 at 10:50 AM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,400
# 97
02-04-2013, 10:47 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sophlogimo View Post
I believe the problem outlined in that popular meme is not one of mechanics, but one of psychology.
What is outlined in that meme is the psycology of a non-team focused loser.



Quote:
Originally Posted by virusdancer View Post
I can see where Fleets might do that healing doohickey nonsense...my attempts at healing in PUGs whether PvE or PvP have always left me with the desire to buy something from the C-Store allowing me to shoot members of my own team.
Hah, fair enough.

When you toss somebody TT1 and they thank you for the heal...yeah...um...yeah...


Quote:
Originally Posted by virusdancer View Post
Outside of Extend Shields though, the other five healing abilities that can be used on somebody else are also tanking abilities.
True.


However You can't load up on dual RSPs.

You can only load SIF gens for better heals or Neutroniums for better soaking.

And, you can only load up on emitters for better heals, or Field Gens for beefier shielding.

You're also unlikely to have other resistance boosts.


And lastly if you've tossed those tanking/heal abilities onto someone else then they are on CD for your own tanking needs.

I'm not saying a healer is an easy kill by any means (and I'm certainly not advocating some senseless turtle build that doesn't heal), but they have a need to split what they do to cover their own needs as well as the needs of team mates.

Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,329
# 98
02-04-2013, 10:54 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ussultimatum View Post
What is outlined in that meme is the psycology of a non-team focused loser.
Insulting people will certainly help you recruit more healers. XD

Of course, what virusdancer hinted at is very important regarding the relative power of cruisers: There is a big, big difference between playing in a premade team and playing in a pick-up group. My impression is that many premade-only players tend to completely ignore the PUG side of things.
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Promote what you love, instead of bashing what you hate.
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Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 141
# 99
02-04-2013, 11:28 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ussultimatum View Post
Except it's not even remotely close to true in this game.

Good healers are the backbone of a solid team.


There are times I'm under fire in my Escort and I don't even need more than EPTS 1 + TT 1 - this isn't because I'm awesome and I'm zipping around at full impulse, it's because my healers have my life in their hands.
In PvP healers are necessary. I like healing in PvP.

In PvE they are optional, and put the team at a disadvantage in the DPS race. The only exception seems to be gimmick fights where you need to keep an NPC healed. If I'm playing an escort in PvE, I almost never need more healing than I can give myself. Heck, I almost never need to move, I'm usually okay just sitting motionless cycling EPtS 1 and TT1 no matter what I have agro from.

In my cruiser I can cycle two copies of ES 2, and copies of Aux to SIF 1 and 3 (so the hull resistance buff is always up, in addition to dropping a pretty powerful ET 2 or TSS 2 when needed. But in PvE, 98% of the time the healer's main contribution is firing underpowered beam broadsides at the team's focus target.

I took about a year off from the game, but it used to be that even the healers put out valuable damage. They weren't the killers, but they kept up sustained pressure. Now if you aren't hitting with DHCs, you basically aren't doing damage at all.

I don't think the healers need to match the killers on DPS, but they are too weak right now. Honestly, science ships also probably do too little weapon damage for the current state of the game. Their control powers are more useful than healing outside of PvP, but if you bring one that can't mount cannons,that still nerfs the team's DPS too much.

Though it doesn't help that the game is loaded with cruiser captains who don't even try to heal.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 141
# 100
02-04-2013, 11:34 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sophlogimo View Post
Insulting people will certainly help you recruit more healers. XD

Of course, what virusdancer hinted at is very important regarding the relative power of cruisers: There is a big, big difference between playing in a premade team and playing in a pick-up group. My impression is that many premade-only players tend to completely ignore the PUG side of things.
Trying to heal in a PUG is a nightmare. ES and A2SIF eat up RSP and higher-level EPtS slots, and if you heal team-mates then your heals will be on cooldown almost all the time, leaving you vulnerable if the enemy shifts to you.

But the PUG escorts are going to allow enemy escorts to just park at a full stop next to the healer and fire into a bare shield facing for as long as they want, and they aren't going to bother tossing you their own heals to bridge the 5 or 10 seconds it will take to get your own big heals off cooldown.

Teams are a whole different story, but most people start with PUGs, and PUGs teach you to not bother trying to heal.
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