Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,732
# 101
02-04-2013, 12:13 PM
Well, I must be a stubborn healer, because I absolutely hate stealing heals from teammates.

If I'm near death, I'll keep my guys alive at all costs. At least with pugmades I can expect a TT from time to time and heal support.


And on that note, please, don't forget to send a TT to your healer from time to time.


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Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,465
# 102
02-04-2013, 12:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sophlogimo View Post
Insulting people will certainly help you recruit more healers. XD

Of course, what virusdancer hinted at is very important regarding the relative power of cruisers: There is a big, big difference between playing in a premade team and playing in a pick-up group. My impression is that many premade-only players tend to completely ignore the PUG side of things.
The vast majority of times I'm in a random PuG. A few times I'm in non random PuG. Very few times have I been in a premade. Idc to have the game balanced around Pugging, 1v1s, or even intership capabilities. It should be how well does ship X fill it's role(s) vs how well does ship Y fill it's role(s).

I acknowledge pressure damage isn't an effective role atm with the exception of KDF battle Cruisers and some Lotto ship builds.

I'll also acknowledge various hybrid/escort builds (not all) are OP in terms of various capabilities. It doesn't follow that support cruisers are UP. They still are very good at their main job, which is to support repair/resist boost an ally.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,400
# 103
02-04-2013, 12:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sophlogimo View Post
Insulting people will certainly help you recruit more healers.
Are you reading something personal into what I posted?

Or are you worried about the feelings of the meme creator?

I specifically crafted that sentence with a deliberate nuance to not directly insult anyone on this forum - however a reader might see something of themselves in there, and there is little I can do about that.


Quote:
Originally Posted by sophlogimo View Post
There is a big, big difference between playing in a premade team and playing in a pick-up group.
Yes. Here are the big differences:

Premade
1) Communication
2) Teamwork
3) Cooperation
4) Focus on team success over personal glory (playstyle & build choices)

PUG
1) Selfish play
2) A desire to be "the hero" (an extension of selfish play), i.e. "kirking it"


Quote:
Originally Posted by sophlogimo View Post
My impression is that many premade-only players tend to completely ignore the PUG side of things.
What they ignore are notions of selfishness in build design and playstyle.



Quote:
Originally Posted by snoge00f View Post
And on that note, please, don't forget to send a TT to your healer from time to time.
Amen.

Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 12,820
# 104
02-04-2013, 12:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ussultimatum View Post
Here are the big differences:

Premade
1) Communication
2) Teamwork
3) Cooperation
4) Focus on team success over personal glory (playstyle & build choices)

PUG
1) Selfish play
2) A desire to be "the hero" (an extension of selfish play), i.e. "kirking it"
I don't quite agree with that. There's too many variables that come into play to write it off as simply being that.

What does a Premade have?

Better communication. They'll usually have voice comms. This is going to be superior than typing. Doesn't mean that the PUG can't or won't communicate - but in the end they're not going to have the better communications available to a Premade. Keybinds can only go so far and communicate so much.

Teamwork experience. Having run together previously, they're going to have the experience of working together as a team. Doesn't mean that the PUG can't or won't work as a team. But it might the first time anybody on that PUG team has seen the other members of the team. The experience the Premade has from even running a single match together is going to be superior.

Cooperation? Well, one could say that this is covered by communication and teamwork. So once again, it doesn't mean that the PUG can't or won't cooperate - but in the end, the Premade's going to have the edge because of better communications and experience working together.

Focus on team success over personal glory (playstyle & build choices)? C'mon, now - that's just being silly. Obviously a group of players that plan on playing together are going to have a synergy going with their styles and build choices. That doesn't mean a PUG can't or won't be team focused. You could have five guys that recognized that PUGs lack healing - so they decide to roll healers - they queue up...bazinga...all five of them end up in the same match. Never knowing what you're team is going to be sporting - what the enemy is going to be sporting...man, that's part of the whole excitement of PUGland. Obviously the Premade may have better focused builds/playstyles for team success, but doesn't mean that they've got the market cornered on wanting the team to win.

Selfish play. Yep, no doubt there's selfish play involved on the PUG side at times. There are also going to be the folks that don't play that way. In the end though, it's somewhat required - because you don't know what your team's going to end up with...you have to be more self-sufficient. Then again, there's selfish play on the Premade side as well (more in a bit).

A desire to be "the hero". Yep, no doubt there's the folks that want to be "the hero" - and that's how they run in PUGs. Course, there's all kind of heroes, eh? There's the hero that wants to kill everything and stand triumphant at the end of the match. The guy that's oblivious to the healing he received, the debuffs his targets received, and all the rest. Yes, that guy's extremely annoying. I think I mentioned a desire earlier to be able to buy the ability to shoot folks on your own team...yeah, this guy...he's one of those guys where "Ooopsie, fatfingered that...sorry." would happen. Ahem... but there's also the healer that PUGs it, knowing full well that his team might be the definition of fail. You don't get that from a Premade. That guy deserves a cookie.

I said I would mention more in a bit about the selfish play on the Premade. Okay, then - it's pretty simple. Better communication, team work experience, and build synergy...lolstomping PUGs. Can't get more selfish than that. I mean, it's not some random numbnuts charging the enemy and then complaining he didn't get heals, nobody followed him, etc, etc, etc. It's a cooperative effort from a group of five to be selfish. That's far worse, imho, than random numbnuts guy. Even if you find yourself on a team with four of them and you desperately wish you could help the other team shoot them... they're still individual selfish players. They're not that premade group of selfish players.
Maal, Klingon, Mogh - Vegar, Orion, Marauder - Rave, J.Trill, Kar'Fi - Mysk, Gorn, Varanus
Kopor, Nausicaan, Guramba - Nivuh, Ferasan, B'rel - Venit, Lethean, M.Qin
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 141
# 105
02-04-2013, 01:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by snoge00f View Post
Well, I must be a stubborn healer, because I absolutely hate stealing heals from teammates.

If I'm near death, I'll keep my guys alive at all costs. At least with pugmades I can expect a TT from time to time and heal support.


And on that note, please, don't forget to send a TT to your healer from time to time.
Well of course you should try not to steal heals, but sometimes it happens. The point is that if the healer is in trouble, they need the team to support them. In PUGs team support is almost always a one-way street.

I've been bitched at for not sending an ET to an escort while I had 3 enemies on me.

PUGmades aren't nearly as bad. The thing is that players tend to start off with PUGs, and healing is definitely the worst role in a PUG.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,671
# 106
02-04-2013, 01:27 PM
the DHC talk got off track, you don't fix it by 'nerfing' it, you do something about the extreme in its front loading. and when you do that, the game can do without TT distribute. it should proboly do without ES too, thats the key to keeping someone basically invincible at the resist cap.

remove those 3 factors and you will only be left with varied levels of damage over time, with BO and torps to provide the only spike. the extremes would be removed, and cruisers would not be UP anymore, none of the none DHC weapons would be UP anymore.


since they wont do anything as extreme, even though it would leave the game in a state were it could easily be balanced from there, here's some half measures that will be nearly as good


-DHCs with CRF makes their fireing cycle practically DC like in effect. maybe firing slightly less shots then a DC, but fireing shots the entire duration of the cycle.

-lower the TT distribute and clear down to a 5 second window

-cut ES's active time down to 15 seconds, and give it an RSP like cooldown


removing or nerfing these things would have 0 effect on pve. well, perhaps no win and cure would be harder with less ES blanketing, but thats it. a team is pretty fail if any shots get fired at the kang though, and no win is supposed to be unwinable. but even pve'ers are wining it now
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 12,820
# 107
02-04-2013, 01:47 PM
Changing the DHC firing rate would still leave it the best weapon. However, that change could result in there not being any kills.

The TT and Extend changes...well, DHCs being the best weapon wouldn't matter because you could alpha people with turrets.

Bah, I'm going to shut up now. This thread's made me very grumpy - I'm reading everything in a negative manner and a closed mind. I'm not contributing anything by posting...
Maal, Klingon, Mogh - Vegar, Orion, Marauder - Rave, J.Trill, Kar'Fi - Mysk, Gorn, Varanus
Kopor, Nausicaan, Guramba - Nivuh, Ferasan, B'rel - Venit, Lethean, M.Qin
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,400
# 108
02-04-2013, 01:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by virusdancer View Post
Better communication. They'll usually have voice comms. This is going to be superior than typing. Doesn't mean that the PUG can't or won't communicate - but in the end they're not going to have the better communications available to a Premade. Keybinds can only go so far and communicate so much.
The point is that it's a variable.


Quote:
Originally Posted by virusdancer View Post
Focus on team success over personal glory (playstyle & build choices)? C'mon, now - that's just being silly.
It's not silly.

I don't even need a hull heal on my escort.

Not chasing personal glory is when you stop worrying about how awesome your DPS or healscore was on the scoreboard and instead focus on the team's strategy for success regardless of where that puts your personal numbers.

Sometimes that means you need to hold back when you want to let loose, and sometimes it means you take a copy of skill A when you wouldn't normally.


Quote:
Originally Posted by virusdancer View Post
I said I would mention more in a bit about the selfish play on the Premade. Okay, then - it's pretty simple. Better communication, team work experience, and build synergy...lolstomping PUGs. Can't get more selfish than that. I mean, it's not some random numbnuts charging the enemy and then complaining he didn't get heals, nobody followed him, etc, etc, etc. It's a cooperative effort from a group of five to be selfish. That's far worse, imho, than random numbnuts guy. Even if you find yourself on a team with four of them and you desperately wish you could help the other team shoot them... they're still individual selfish players. They're not that premade group of selfish players.
I think you've kind of veered off into some alternate conversation here.

Selfish play for a single player is exactly that.

Wanting your team to win, and focusing on the team's success mean exactly the same things they mean in sports.

You stick to the gameplan, you play for each other and you generally try to keep your own ego in check.


If you want to define 'wanting to win' or play with your friends as the height of selfishness, that's your perrogative.


For me most PUG PvP in the queues (and not pugmades where there is generally at least a bit of coordination in team comp and play) was about as rewarding as most of this game's PvE content.

Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,671
# 109
02-04-2013, 02:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by virusdancer View Post
Changing the DHC firing rate would still leave it the best weapon. However, that change could result in there not being any kills.

The TT and Extend changes...well, DHCs being the best weapon wouldn't matter because you could alpha people with turrets.
TT currently turns 90% of sure kills into something they can live through. having recently used DCs to see how bad they were by comparison, no you couldn't alpha someone to death with CRF turrets. you cant do it with CRF singles, have a ton of experience with that one, and you cant even do it with CRF DCs. you don't need TT for any of that incoming damage.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,395
# 110
02-05-2013, 02:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sophlogimo View Post
http://weknowmemes.com/2013/01/the-b...ying-a-healer/

I know very, very few cruiser captains (or do I even know one?) who just want to help others survive stuff, precisely because of that.
As much as it might pain me to say it, you have half a point. Playing a healer is typically stressful because (as I think someone else put it elsewhere) there's no worse feeling than having a teammate die at your hand, and you'll take a good part of the heat for how a game turns out in the end. That said, STO is much better than most games for appreciating healers. There are other, far worse communities that make it feel like walking into machine gun fire.

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