Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,010
# 11
02-05-2013, 10:45 PM
There is that new Systems Engineer DOFF from the Dominion Lockbox that reduces weapon drain similar to Nadeon Inversion whenever DEM is used, though only for the first 8 seconds of a salvo.
Commander
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 366
# 12
02-06-2013, 12:33 AM
Quote:
I think the only thing you'd be good for in a larger match would be for heavy torp, mines, and pet spam maintenance.
For spam (fighters/drones) only if you are tac captain or are in cruiser/sci with three tac slots to buff them up (assuming you use two TT) or both. If not then single turret is more effective spam manager then two or three beams. Dunno why, most likely due to some ACC differences between beams and cannons and possibly drain mechanics. Pure beams (no buff) simply lack the punch to kill even fighters quickly and often have issues with ACC to get the heavy torps before they get you. Buffed up it is different.

So no - beams are not valid at all.
Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 3,482
# 13
02-06-2013, 12:37 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by reginamala78 View Post
There is that new Systems Engineer DOFF from the Dominion Lockbox that reduces weapon drain similar to Nadeon Inversion whenever DEM is used, though only for the first 8 seconds of a salvo.
That doff is from the temp lockbox.
When the messenger comes to appropriate your profits ... kill the messenger.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 843
# 14
02-06-2013, 05:59 AM
Based on this prognosis the pvp ques have lost another player sure you won't miss me but its a crying shame as Star Trek and beams is how it's meant to be
----=====This is my opinion you don't have to listen and no one else has to read them these "OPINIONS" are based on my exploits and my learning other people will have their opinions and that's fine just don't knock my way of doing things thanks=====----
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,400
# 15
02-06-2013, 06:01 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by reginamala78 View Post
There is that new Systems Engineer DOFF from the Dominion Lockbox that reduces weapon drain similar to Nadeon Inversion whenever DEM is used, though only for the first 8 seconds of a salvo.
8s is plenty of time for a beam overload.

Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 11,568
# 16
02-06-2013, 06:07 AM
I wish the game had target dummies.

Static Target.
Cruiser Target.
Escort Target.
Fighter Target.
Mixed Group Target.

Something that a person could go through and...get a baseline. Where the resists and defense stats of the target were known...so folks could look at the numbers and adjust them based on what they might be facing - taking into account different resists and heals that would be received.

We don't have those, though. Folks have tested things against each other though, eh? OPvP: "Hey, can somebody help me test something?"

So folks must have parsed the Escort DHC vs. Escort Beam builds - they should have the DPS from the first to compare to the DPS of the latter, right? Hard numbers?

As a separate note in regard to Beams on Escorts, there's an additional benefit outside of just having the additional Tac consoles and +Weapon Power: flawed Arcs.

Okay, so this doesn't just apply to Beams - it applies to all weapons with a cycle (whether DHCs or Hyper-Plasma torps). The target only has to be in the arc when you start the cycle. The weapon will continue to fire at the target even after the target's left the arc.

Escorts are best suited to exploit these flawed Arcs because of their turn rates. With that base turn rate and judicial use of abilities that boost turn - you can give Beams the appearance of having a 360 arc while also firing your fore and aft torps.

You approach the target (Fore facing) - fire your beams and Fore torp. You turn left. Fore beams are still in their arc and continue to fire. Aft beams now in their arc begin to fire. You continue to turn left (Aft facing). Your Fore beams are still going to fire, even though they're no longer in their arc. The Aft beams will continue to fire since they're obviously still in their arc. Your Aft torp fires. You continue to turn left. Fore and Aft beams are both in their arcs and continue to fire. You turn left again (Fore facing once more). Yep, not only will your Fore beams and Fore torp fire - but your Aft beams are going to continue firing if they're still in that cycle. Given that the beams have that 250 arc, it's very easy to give the appearance of the Beams having 360 arcs - as long as you wiggle from side to side instead of just sitting on a target Fore/Aft.

It would be strange if they ever fixed this - there are probably a lot of DHC Escortjocks that would take a hit to their DPS cause they don't even realize it. Others, well - they wouldn't notice - they're that good...Evil Bastiches.

Hrmmm, so should weapons check arc per shot instead of per cycle?

It is kind of amusing. though, to have that Hyper-Plasma mounted fore, firing, doing the quick 180, and giving the appearance that your Hyper-Plasma is mounted aft while firing off the THY Omega that is mounted aft.

But still, would Arrays be more viable if:

DHCs/DCs actually only fired in their 45s?
DBBs actually only fired in their 90s?
SCs actually only fired in their 180s?

Heck, what about Torps, eh? That single shot - single activation - in its 90? Would they look better if everything else was actually limited to the arc that's supposed to be limiting them...but isn't?

Kind of begs the questions, eh? Are the weapons balanced with this flaw acknowledged or balanced without it being acknowledged? If they're balanced with it, well - that's that. If not though, maybe they should fix the arcs or balance the weapons around the broken arcs.

Simple test: Grab a friend, DHCs, CRF, line up the friend on the edge of your 45, CRF, fire, turn, and watch the DHCs fire while outside the 45 arc. It's broken.
Willard the Rat, Reman, F.T'varo - Rave, J.Trill, Kar'Fi - Mysk, Gorn, Varanus
Maal, Klingon, Mogh - Vegar, Orion, Marauder - R'ebel, Romulan, Haakona
Kopor, Nausicaan, Guramba - Nivuh, Ferasan, B'rel - Venit, Lethean, M.Qin
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 598
# 17
02-06-2013, 06:18 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by virusdancer View Post
I wish the game had target dummies.

Static Target.
Cruiser Target.
Escort Target.
Fighter Target.
Mixed Group Target.

Something that a person could go through and...get a baseline. Where the resists and defense stats of the target were known...so folks could look at the numbers and adjust them based on what they might be facing - taking into account different resists and heals that would be received.

We don't have those, though. Folks have tested things against each other though, eh? OPvP: "Hey, can somebody help me test something?"

So folks must have parsed the Escort DHC vs. Escort Beam builds - they should have the DPS from the first to compare to the DPS of the latter, right? Hard numbers?

As a separate note in regard to Beams on Escorts, there's an additional benefit outside of just having the additional Tac consoles and +Weapon Power: flawed Arcs.

Okay, so this doesn't just apply to Beams - it applies to all weapons with a cycle (whether DHCs or Hyper-Plasma torps). The target only has to be in the arc when you start the cycle. The weapon will continue to fire at the target even after the target's left the arc.

Escorts are best suited to exploit these flawed Arcs because of their turn rates. With that base turn rate and judicial use of abilities that boost turn - you can give Beams the appearance of having a 360 arc while also firing your fore and aft torps.

You approach the target (Fore facing) - fire your beams and Fore torp. You turn left. Fore beams are still in their arc and continue to fire. Aft beams now in their arc begin to fire. You continue to turn left (Aft facing). Your Fore beams are still going to fire, even though they're no longer in their arc. The Aft beams will continue to fire since they're obviously still in their arc. Your Aft torp fires. You continue to turn left. Fore and Aft beams are both in their arcs and continue to fire. You turn left again (Fore facing once more). Yep, not only will your Fore beams and Fore torp fire - but your Aft beams are going to continue firing if they're still in that cycle. Given that the beams have that 250 arc, it's very easy to give the appearance of the Beams having 360 arcs - as long as you wiggle from side to side instead of just sitting on a target Fore/Aft.

It would be strange if they ever fixed this - there are probably a lot of DHC Escortjocks that would take a hit to their DPS cause they don't even realize it. Others, well - they wouldn't notice - they're that good...Evil Bastiches.

Hrmmm, so should weapons check arc per shot instead of per cycle?

It is kind of amusing. though, to have that Hyper-Plasma mounted fore, firing, doing the quick 180, and giving the appearance that your Hyper-Plasma is mounted aft while firing off the THY Omega that is mounted aft.

But still, would Arrays be more viable if:

DHCs/DCs actually only fired in their 45s?
DBBs actually only fired in their 90s?
SCs actually only fired in their 180s?

Heck, what about Torps, eh? That single shot - single activation - in its 90? Would they look better if everything else was actually limited to the arc that's supposed to be limiting them...but isn't?

Kind of begs the questions, eh? Are the weapons balanced with this flaw acknowledged or balanced without it being acknowledged? If they're balanced with it, well - that's that. If not though, maybe they should fix the arcs or balance the weapons around the broken arcs.

Simple test: Grab a friend, DHCs, CRF, line up the friend on the edge of your 45, CRF, fire, turn, and watch the DHCs fire while outside the 45 arc. It's broken.
Yeah, we need some kind of shooting range with a built-in combat log and dmg/healing counter, where a person can load up whatever weapons s/he wants and whatever target s/he wants, and even adjust the various equipment on the target. How cool would that be? I would be in that program at least 5 times a week!!

@gradstudent1
PvP Boot Camp Project Leader Emeritus
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,400
# 18
02-06-2013, 06:19 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by virusdancer View Post
I wish the game had target dummies.
There's actually 1 good instance now for a target dummy.

It's not exactly what you describe as it is only 1 type of target, but SB 234 in Tau Dewa functions as a good target to get baseline results on.


It's also repeatable, and it's exceedingly rare to see another player in the instance.

Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 11,568
# 19
02-06-2013, 06:24 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ussultimatum View Post
There's actually 1 good instance now for a target dummy.

It's not exactly what you describe as it is only 1 type of target, but SB 234 in Tau Dewa functions as a good target to get baseline results on.


It's also repeatable, and it's exceedingly rare to see another player in the instance.
Yeah, I've recommended that to a few folks since S7 started. The base has pretty high resists and if you're not paying attention might even kill some players.

I spent some time there in the first couple of weeks after S7 to see how low I could get the base before time ran out.
Willard the Rat, Reman, F.T'varo - Rave, J.Trill, Kar'Fi - Mysk, Gorn, Varanus
Maal, Klingon, Mogh - Vegar, Orion, Marauder - R'ebel, Romulan, Haakona
Kopor, Nausicaan, Guramba - Nivuh, Ferasan, B'rel - Venit, Lethean, M.Qin
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 11,568
# 20
02-06-2013, 07:27 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mustafatennick View Post
Based on this prognosis the pvp ques have lost another player sure you won't miss me but its a crying shame as Star Trek and beams is how it's meant to be
This is a variant of what I'm working toward on one of my toons. There are some boff/doff changes I make depending on my mood. The underlined items are the things I'm still working toward - usually a case of having Blue wanting Purple or having a stand-in while working toward that item.

Chel Grett
Engineer Captain

Passives
Romulus: +3% CrtH, ShieldHealOnCritProc
Omega: +30 Weapons Training, KineticProc

TT1, BTW2, APO1, APO3
THY1/TS1, FAW2
(THY for FvF and TS for FvK - Omega the AAs)
EPtS1, AtS1
EPtW1

ST1, HE2, TSS3

DOFFs: 2x Conn(TT), 2x DCE(EPt), EWO(Sub)

Deflector: MACO Mk XII
Engine: Aegis (+5% Defense (Engines) + 10% Defense (Escort) + Maneuvers/Impulse > 24 = would still mean +85% Bonus Defense)
Shield: MACO Mk XII

Weapons
Fore: Omega Torp, Experimental Beam Array, 2x Romulan Plasma Beam Array Mk XII [Acc]x2
Aft: Hyper-Plasma Torp, Cutting Beam, 2x Romulan Plasma Beam Array Mk XII [Acc]x2

Consoles
Tac: 4x Plasma Infuser Mk XI (Currently 3x VR Mk XI and 1 R Mk XI - those VR Mk XII's start at ~22m EC - ouch!)
Eng: EPM, Tachyokinetic, Neut Mk XI (Typical R Mk XI currently - VR Mk XI and R Mk XII ~same price VR Mk XII ~30m)
Sci: Borg Module, Zero-Point, Field Gen Mk XII (R Mk XI currently - the R Mk XII's ~6m while the VR Mk XII's ~42m)

Devices: SFM, Aux Batt, Eng Batt

The Alpha? TT1, APO3, FAW2, THY1, EPtW1, Nadion Inversion, EPS Power.

Do things pop like a Tac's DHC Alpha? Not a chance in Hell...lol.
Does it pop from the Tac's DHC Alpha? Nope.
Against an equally skilled opponent? I'd take this build over the average DHC build.

But it's not about 1v1's outside of duels or perhaps in CnH. I believe the Beamscort can better apply damage that warrants healing than a DHCscort. If caught in tractors during the gap in APOs, if the DHCscort's facing the wrong way...it's got nothing. 3x Turrets vs. possible 5x Beams and the Cutting Beam? Yeah, there are healers that won't bite - plenty do though - allowing others to burn down the actual target.

I could go on and on about it, but it doesn't really matter. Cause I'm not talking about the same thing that the others are talking about. It's apples and oranges.

Premades & PUGs.

Premade vs. Premade? Yeah, not going to happen. Not viable. There's just too much coordination and synergy taking place that requires the high spike from DHCs to kill anything.

PUGland? More than viable, imho.

PUG vs. PUGmade/Premade...well, let's be honest here - does it really matter? You're likely to start off with 1-2 AFKers, 1-2 more will not respawn upon seeing the other AFKers and that they're facing an organized team, and even the folks that will just suicide run over and over to get the match over as fast as possible. So that's moot, imho.

Until they address the issues with abilities ignoring weapon mods and procs and until they address the issue with firing arcs... I'd be curious to see somebody making the case for them to be viable outside of "pressure" on a healboat or nuker/debuffer in Premade World.

For PUGland? Eff 'em, if you believe you can bring value to the team by doing it - then do it. If you're just doing it because it's Star Trek (but you're not building around trying to get the most out of them) - well, be honest with yourself - don't expect much return on the investment, because you haven't made much of an investment into the build.
Willard the Rat, Reman, F.T'varo - Rave, J.Trill, Kar'Fi - Mysk, Gorn, Varanus
Maal, Klingon, Mogh - Vegar, Orion, Marauder - R'ebel, Romulan, Haakona
Kopor, Nausicaan, Guramba - Nivuh, Ferasan, B'rel - Venit, Lethean, M.Qin
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