Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 9,068
# 121
02-06-2013, 08:25 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by zarathos1978 View Post
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1aLEe1lbzZM

The closest thing we can get. It's also the best example of what single beam hit can do (both to an escort and cruiser - Defiant Quads (or double DHCs) are not all that much better then it's single beam array
I'm actually glad you linked that. The other one I've watched was when Sisko took the Defiant out to rescue Gul Dukat and the civilian government from the Klingons. A clip that didn't support either Escort or BoPs moving the way they do in STO.

I wish Escorts moved like they did in this clip - even giving them that lateral slide - just so the turn was reduced to what it was in that clip. Escorts in STO turn better than the Perregrine did in that clip. Bashir's raider is a Mirror Peregrine.
Willard the Rat, Reman, F.T'varo - Rave, J.Trill, Kar'Fi - Mysk, Gorn, Varanus
Maal, Klingon, Mogh - Vegar, Orion, Marauder
Nivuh, Ferasan, B'rel - Venit, Lethaen, M.Qin - Kopor, Nausicaan, Guramba
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,391
# 122
02-06-2013, 08:37 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by virusdancer View Post
I'm actually glad you linked that. The other one I've watched was when Sisko took the Defiant out to rescue Gul Dukat and the civilian government from the Klingons. A clip that didn't support either Escort or BoPs moving the way they do in STO.

I wish Escorts moved like they did in this clip - even giving them that lateral slide - just so the turn was reduced to what it was in that clip. Escorts in STO turn better than the Perregrine did in that clip. Bashir's raider is a Mirror Peregrine.
Cherry picking video from decades of cannon (which contracticts itself and visually restricted by plot device and FX limits of the time) isn't a reason to change game balance. BBC recent marathon had rerun Relic where Geordi mentions a 100+ years old ship (that was basically serving as in a transport capacity) could run circles around the Enterprise @ impulse speeds. How many times in Voyager or the Enterprise Series did you see ships zipping around the screen as XF tech advanced over the years?
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,690
# 123
02-06-2013, 09:15 AM
I did read somewhere (I can't find the link now) that phaser dual cannons (as mounted on the Defiant) were designed (and built) to provide equivalent firepower of beam arrays in a size mountable on escort size starships (see the Defiant) note however as time went by and progress was made how starfleet returned to beam arrays even on their escorts to great effectiveness (see the Prometheus).

Is that not a reason to bring Beam arrays in game up to at least dual cannon levels? (thus allowing them to compete with DHCs without removing the advantage DHCs hold)
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 9,068
# 124
02-06-2013, 09:26 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by p2wsucks View Post
Cherry picking video from decades of cannon (which contracticts itself and visually restricted by plot device and FX limits of the time) isn't a reason to change game balance. BBC recent marathon had rerun Relic where Geordi mentions a 100+ years old ship (that was basically serving as in a transport capacity) could run circles around the Enterprise @ impulse speeds. How many times in Voyager or the Enterprise Series did you see ships zipping around the screen as XF tech advanced over the years?
Meat pancakes.
Inertial dampeners can only illogically explain so much before Star Trek Shake kicks in.

Take a Bug.
4x Purple RCS Mk XII.
Tachyokinetic Converter.
Omega Shields.
Omega Engines.
125/100 Engine Power.
TT1.
3x Purple Conn(TT) DOFFs.
APO3.
APA3.
Evasive Maneuvers.
AtD1.
EPtE1.
Impulse Thrusters 9.
Deuterium Surplus.

I feel like I'm missing something. Meh, I think that's enough though.

Would you do that? No, of course not.

The question I have posed is: How much of that should you be able to do?

It's not about nerfing the Escort's base turn rate nor buffing the Cruiser's base turn rate.

It's about how high one should be able to take that turn rate...before...meat pancakes.

I'm not sure how somebody could say that the game is balanced with the broken arcs and the ability to turn so fast while exploiting those arcs. Wouldn't balance be a case of fixing that?
Willard the Rat, Reman, F.T'varo - Rave, J.Trill, Kar'Fi - Mysk, Gorn, Varanus
Maal, Klingon, Mogh - Vegar, Orion, Marauder
Nivuh, Ferasan, B'rel - Venit, Lethaen, M.Qin - Kopor, Nausicaan, Guramba

Last edited by virusdancer; 02-06-2013 at 09:44 AM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,390
# 125
02-06-2013, 09:27 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by adamkafei View Post
Is that not a reason to bring Beam arrays in game up to at least dual cannon levels? (thus allowing them to compete with DHCs without removing the advantage DHCs hold)
No, it isn't.

Using canon to balance an MMO with classes and roles doesn't work.

This is not Star Trek, it is Star Trek Online.

Canon provides backdrop and theme, not game mechanics.

What would be the disadvantage then to having a 250 degree firing arc if you have the same DPS DCs?

What land of lunacy would it be if BAs had DHC DPV, so you can have a 360 degree capable BO 3 at DHC DPV level?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 127
# 126
02-06-2013, 09:28 AM
Because Beam Arrays are already better than Dual Cannons are.

Also the only thing holding beams down, is things like the BFI Doff (which still provides too much free healing), and the stupid Azn Grind Passive that heals your shields every time you are crit.

Though really, beams are far far better than people give them credit for, especially in the hands of a tac.
Anyone that says beams suck haven't watched Trinity in action or myself in my tacxelsior. (the Excels is one boff slot short from being able to -really- run cannons effectively) I've never seen my team mates complain about a lack of damage from my Excels. Beams also imo, are better for ripping down high capacity low regeneration shields, and also work better with Omegas 2 set bonus due to their relatively unrestricted firing ability. This is in part due to how Cannons v Beams work on the firing cycle. Beams have overlap durations, cannons do not which gives shields a longer recovery period than if they are constantly being burned down. You can almost -always- provide extra drain (and it adds up fairly quickly too) with beams and glider. Also for beams to crank you have to shy away from double ACC and X. Their high innate accuracy means Acc, and CrtHx2 become much more potent. CrtD is okay if you can't afford the CrtH2 Acc beams. And with FAW (because you -will- be using FAW if you pvp more than once a year with all the carrier trash out there) CrtH2 CrtDs start getting really appealing thanks to the FAW Acc Bug.


It's the Eng that's boned, not the beams themselves imo. He has no substantial way to increase his damage or debuff the enemy. All he can do is heal well.

Last edited by mavhax; 02-06-2013 at 09:41 AM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,390
# 127
02-06-2013, 09:39 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mavhax View Post
Also the only thing holding beams down, is things like the BFI Doff (which still provides too much free healing), and the stupid Azn Grind Passive that heals your shields every time you are crit.
There is also the FAW ACC bug (which has a fix on the way) and the fleet [adapt] shield
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 127
# 128
02-06-2013, 09:42 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ussultimatum View Post
There is also the FAW ACC bug (which has a fix on the way) and the fleet [adapt] shield
Got that covered above already
And with Plas, the CrtD CrtH2 ''hinderances'' become boons. (Which imo every cruiser that has an LTC Eng should have Plas at this point. And especially Excelsis with all that tac buff plas power)
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 127
# 129
02-06-2013, 09:49 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by virusdancer View Post
Meat pancakes.
Inertial dampeners can only illogically explain so much before Star Trek Shake kicks in.

Take a Bug.
4x Purple RCS Mk XII.
Tachyokinetic Converter.
Omega Shields.
Omega Engines.
125/100 Engine Power.
TT1.
3x Purple Conn(TT) DOFFs.
APO3.
APA3.
Evasive Maneuvers.
AtD1.
EPtE1.
Impulse Thrusters 9.
Deuterium Surplus.

I feel like I'm missing something. Meh, I think that's enough though.

Would you do that? No, of course not.

The question I have posed is: How much of that should you be able to do?

It's not about nerfing the Escort's base turn rate nor buffing the Cruiser's base turn rate.

It's about how high one should be able to take that turn rate...before...meat pancakes.

I'm not sure how somebody could say that the game is balanced with the broken arcs and the ability to turn so fast while exploiting those arcs. Wouldn't balance be a case of fixing that?
Meat Pancakes would happen every time you go to warp then. People always think about lateral Gs, but they never think about forward G. The forward power of warp, warp bubble or not, would still be more than enough to pancake the crew. The forward load is much higher than the lateral gs of combat.

Also we know how fast ST ships are in this game. They aren't even as fast as a Fighter Jet in combat speed. Just look at the pitifully slow closing distances and do the math. Their rate of acceleration and deceleration and lateral G is no where near meat pancakes level. Unless you want to say an F15 kills it's pilot every time it even thinks about turning.

If you think firing arc doesn't matter at all, maybe you should duel some of the better tac cruisers out there and see how fast they burn you down while you try to zip around them

Last edited by mavhax; 02-06-2013 at 09:52 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 9,068
# 130
02-06-2013, 09:55 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mavhax View Post
It's the Eng that's boned, not the beams themselves imo. He has no substantial way to increase his damage or debuff the enemy. All he can do is heal well.
Miracle Worker (heal), Nadion Inversion (system drain resist), EPS Power (power boost), Rotate Shield (heal/resist), Engineering Fleet (resist, hull repair skill boost, possible power level boost).

vs.

Attack Pattern Alpha (+Dmg, +CrtH, +CrtD, +Turn), Fire on My Mark (-Dmg Resist), Tactical Initiative (faster Tac BOFF abilities), Go Down Fighting (scaling +Dmg), Tactical Fleet (+Dmg, +Acc, +Def)

No doubt if you put an Eng and a Tac in the same boat, the Tac could do more damage than the Eng. The only way the Eng could pull ahead is if the encounter is such that the Tac kept dying while the Eng was able to plod along doing damage.

But that's Career choice - that's how the Tac in the Cruiser will do more DPS than the Eng in the Cruiser (again, unless the Tac somehow manages to keep dying and the Eng eventually passes them - but I'm not sure there's anything in the game like that).

It goes beyond that, though - as one looks at the number of Tac consoles vs. Eng consoles - and what one can put in there. It's the Tac BOFFs vs. Eng BOFFs.

That's not about Tactical Captain vs. Engineering Captain. That's about the Tac Captain in different ships - how the BOFF layouts and consoles affect things. The Tac Cap is always going to do more damage than the Eng Cap.

And the thing is, addressing the Engineering Ensign BOFFs as well as Engineering Consoles would not solely benefit Cruisers. It wouldn't do anything about the complaints from Engineers about Tacs...if anything, they'd likely end up complaining more. Tacs would get the most out of it. But hey, it would make things a little more viable in PUGland and over in PvE, no?
Willard the Rat, Reman, F.T'varo - Rave, J.Trill, Kar'Fi - Mysk, Gorn, Varanus
Maal, Klingon, Mogh - Vegar, Orion, Marauder
Nivuh, Ferasan, B'rel - Venit, Lethaen, M.Qin - Kopor, Nausicaan, Guramba
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