Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,450
# 151
02-06-2013, 01:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by virusdancer View Post
X being broken and fixed, doesn't mean Y isn't broken.

And seriously, using a broken Tac BOFF ability for a comparison...seriously?



The issue with Ensign Engineering BOFF abilities...is not strictly a Cruiser issue. It affects all ships. It affects Cruisers and Battle Cruisers the most because of usually having the Cmdr/LCdr Eng BOFF slots, but it's not just a Cruiser/BC issue.

The issue with Engineers (which I've tried to avoid in this thread, since it's a Cruiser thread and Cruiser issues don't care about Tac, Eng, or Sci) - is not limited to Cruisers. That issue follows them into whatever ship they fly.

Basically, it sounds like your suggestion is for folks to play Tac/Tac or Sci/Sci...
...funny, that's kind of what I said it looked like Cryptic did with the design of the game.

Which...is...an...issue.
What Cmdr/LcDr Eng Boff slot issues are there again? If anything Sci Capt/Lt Commander Boffs have issues, but that's another subject.

I agree Engineers have issues.

My suggestion is if you're going to fly a base Fed Cruiser understand it's designed for team support and if you don't want to fill that role pick another ship. It has nothing to do w/Tac/Tac or Sci/Sci. It has everything to do w/playstyle choices. Exactly, what playstyle chioce do you want that isn't available in this game? Or is you want Fed Cruisers to fill all playstyle chioces?
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 12,028
# 152
02-06-2013, 01:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
DEM is actually an additional chunk of damage added to every shot that goes directly to hull, it is independent of the actual weapons damage. so it sucks on low rate of fire beams, and is amazing on rapid fire cannons. doesn't seem particularly fair to beam array users does it. its a must have skill on a KDF cruiser, or something like a single cannons excelsior though
I still find it funny, that it's 6 pts in a T5 Tactical skill so an Engineer can train DEM3. I suppose that gets into their fuzzy balancing.
Maal, Klingon, Mogh - Vegar, Orion, Marauder - R'ebel, Romulan, Haakona
Willard the Rat, Reman, F.T'varo - Rave, J.Trill, Kar'Fi - Mysk, Gorn, Varanus
Kopor, Nausicaan, Guramba - Nivuh, Ferasan, B'rel - Venit, Lethean, M.Qin
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,522
# 153
02-06-2013, 01:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ssb64 View Post
what rapid fire cannons ? stupid turrets, single cannons, and using only one cannon rapid fire (1 btw) ? lol
any cruiser your trying to deal damage with more then heal should proboly be using a tech doff skill. then only 1 copy of CRF has about the up time of 2 copies. the excelsior could already have 2 copies of CRF too. your damage is still short bus levels, nothing without DHCs deals real pain
gateway links-->Norvo Tigan, Telis Latto Ruwon, Sochie Heim, Solana Soleus
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 12,028
# 154
02-06-2013, 02:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by p2wsucks View Post
What Cmdr/LcDr Eng Boff slot issues are there again? If anything Sci Capt/Lt Commander Boffs have issues, but that's another subject.
It's not the Cmdr/LCdr rank ability slots themselves. It's the abilities available on the way up.

X, X, X, X
X, X, X


When you only have 5 abilities to choose from for the Ensign slots, where 4 of the 5 are in the same group, you don't have many choices.

So you move on to LT slots. There are 7 new abilities. 3 in one group, 2 in another group, and 2 not in a group. You can also take R2 of those 5 Ensign abilities - they're still in the same groups they were at R1 though.

If you took EPtS1 and EPtW1, it's unlikely that you're going to take another EPt at LT. Maybe you took one EPt1 and ET1 and you'll take another EPt2 at LT. So you've still got the choice of one of those 7 new abilities.

So you move on to the LCdr slots. There are 2 new abilities. They don't share a group. Overall, you have a choice of 14 abilities for each of those LCdr slots. There are 8 groups for those 14 abilities. Doesn't sound too bad. Well, you've already picked 4 abilities that may have resulted in 2 abilities in each group. There's nothing saying that you can't use 3 from the same group. With Eng BOFF abilities though, the way the CDs work - odds are something's just going to be sitting there unused. Also, certain rotations of two abilities almost precludes the use of a third.

Btw, don't forget that ET's sharing space with TT and ST.

And then you've got that final Cmdr slot. 7 abilities (9 if you count the R2s as well as the R3s). No new abilities - no new groups. Depending on what you've selected along the way, you may have limited your effective choices.

Compare that to Tac or Sci. Tac has more choices and abilities, but it's going to be limited by weapons. Sci has more choices and abilities than even Tac, but it's going to be limited by skill build. Eng's limited by simply being limited in choices and abilities, but it's also further limited by weapons and skill build as well.

Is it too much to ask that each of the groups have a similar amount of choices - with those choices being balanced by opportunity cost. Tac should have more. Eng should definitely have more. Those "more" shouldn't just be awesomemegabonus time - they should still present some opportunity cost.

If you've got X skills and Y weapons, then Z are your choices. Whether it's Tac or Eng. Sci's obviously going to be that special case since it's so heavily tied into skills.

It's even been suggested in similar discussions that only Ensign rank or En/Lt rank abilities be added. Even if you could only take R1 or R1/2 of something - that still has that opportunity cost either in other ability selection, weapon choice, or skill build - it could go a long way not only improving Cruisers...but improving any vessel that has at least one Engineering BOFF slot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by p2wsucks View Post
My suggestion is if you're going to fly a base Fed Cruiser understand it's designed for team support and if you don't want to fill that role pick another ship. It has nothing to do w/Tac/Tac or Sci/Sci. It has everything to do w/playstyle choices. Exactly, what playstyle chioce do you want that isn't available in this game? Or is you want Fed Cruisers to fill all playstyle chioces?
My Fed Eng flies a Chel Gret - Escort.
My KDF Eng flies a Mirror Vor'cha/Kamarag - Battle Cruiser.
My Fed Sci flies a Mirror RSV - Science.
My KDF Tac flies a Mirror Vo'quv - Carrier.

The only toon that comes close to filling the stereotypical role is the Fed Sci. Course, I doubt he could kill you if you were AFK. However, the Tac/Tac next to him could kill you pressing his spacebar with his pinkytoe while eating Cheetos and watching a movie. That's the closest any of them come to the stereotypical role. (And no, that's not a challenge - it's not a specific "you" - it's just the generic you as in somebody.)

The KDF Tac's actually the closest thing to a healer out of that group. She'll drop FoMM on whatever target's been called or needs it, she'll TI teammates, and isn't stingy with the heals. I feel safer with the GDF with that much hull than on an Escort as well. It's funny seeing how much hull you have left even at 30%.

I DPS with both Engineers - though the KDF Eng will also tank in PvE or bait in PUGland. The Chel's sporting Beams and the Vor'cha/Kamarag are using torps.

I'm fully aware that a Tac could do more damage in the Chel Grett than the Eng can.
I'm fully aware that the Eng could do more damage with DHCs than Beams.

The Tac's also more likely to die than the Eng though.
With DHCs you're fighting for positioning to use them which can leave you exposed - with the Beams, they're doing their thing while I'm making sure I'm not exposed.

Tac/Tac have a tendency to disengage and run away. So much has been min/maxed around trying to deliver that alpha... I try to min/max to go "oh that tickled" at the alpha while winning a battle of attrition. If I was a Tac in that Chel Grett and using DHCs... man, I'd probably have quit by now - dying too much and doing garbage for damage because of it. I don't though. I'm an Eng in it with Beams. I plod along - have fun - then I'm outnumbered or a Sci's making me call him daddy...and then I respawn.

That's not a VD's awesome by any means. There are folks out there that would shred me regardless of what I'm flying. Hell, there's folks out there that would shred me and any friends I brought along. They're effin' awesome.

But yeah, all that aside - I agree that folks should look at their playstyle - what they want to do - and plan accordingly. That doesn't mean folks can't look at something and see there's something wrong with it.

I hate posting in these threads at times, because I often feel that I get lumped in with all the crazies. No genuine offense meant to them, but c'mon - they're freaking loons.

For damage:

Tac > Eng
Escort > Cruiser

Which means Tac/Escort > Eng/Escort & Tac/Cruiser > Eng/Cruiser. Eng/Escort vs. Tac/Cruiser...that's a tough one. Heh, Eng/Bug > Tac/Star Cruiser. That's safe, right?

I don't buy into the Eng should be able to do the same damage as the Tac. I don't buy into the Cruiser should be able to do the same damage as the Escort.

Doesn't mean I don't see problems with Engineers, Engineer BOFFs, and Cruisers. Heck, I think even Tac Captains and Tac BOFFs need some love. Sci? Yeah, they need some love from the Eng and Tac Captains in their Cruisers and Escorts.
Maal, Klingon, Mogh - Vegar, Orion, Marauder - R'ebel, Romulan, Haakona
Willard the Rat, Reman, F.T'varo - Rave, J.Trill, Kar'Fi - Mysk, Gorn, Varanus
Kopor, Nausicaan, Guramba - Nivuh, Ferasan, B'rel - Venit, Lethean, M.Qin
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,395
# 155
02-06-2013, 03:00 PM
I still don't understand why Fed snoozers have the turn rate that they do. They mechanically can't equip DCs/DHCs even if they wanted to, so what's the big deal?

vids and guides and stuff

[9:52] [Zone #11] Neal@trapper1532: im a omega force shadow oprative and a maoc elite camander and here i am taking water samples
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 12,028
# 156
02-06-2013, 03:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by shimmerless View Post
I still don't understand why Fed snoozers have the turn rate that they do. They mechanically can't equip DCs/DHCs even if they wanted to, so what's the big deal?
Would the Fed Cruiser's turn rate be an issue if the Escort's turn rate couldn't go as high as it can?

Is 7-12 really that bad compared to 15-25?

Or is it when it's the 7-12 vs. 30-40+?
Maal, Klingon, Mogh - Vegar, Orion, Marauder - R'ebel, Romulan, Haakona
Willard the Rat, Reman, F.T'varo - Rave, J.Trill, Kar'Fi - Mysk, Gorn, Varanus
Kopor, Nausicaan, Guramba - Nivuh, Ferasan, B'rel - Venit, Lethean, M.Qin
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,395
# 157
02-06-2013, 03:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by virusdancer View Post
Would the Fed Cruiser's turn rate be an issue if the Escort's turn rate couldn't go as high as it can?

Is 7-12 really that bad compared to 15-25?

Or is it when it's the 7-12 vs. 30-40+?
Well you do have to take into consideration the silliness that is AP:O/RCS consoles. For some inane reason they scale percentage-wise, rather than a flat additive, meaning that that escort will actually get more (a lot more) out of an RCS than will that Fed snoozer or what have you.

vids and guides and stuff

[9:52] [Zone #11] Neal@trapper1532: im a omega force shadow oprative and a maoc elite camander and here i am taking water samples
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 141
# 158
02-06-2013, 03:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by shimmerless View Post
Well you do have to take into consideration the silliness that is AP:O/RCS consoles. For some inane reason they scale percentage-wise, rather than a flat additive, meaning that that escort will actually get more (a lot more) out of an RCS than will that Fed snoozer or what have you.
I've always thought that was a problem. It actually makes it so that if your stuck with one of the more sluggish ships, the RCS console has less benefit. You'd think that the ships with the most need of some extra turning would benefit most by adding some, but generally speaking they're better off piling on armor since they can't modify their turn by enough to matter anyway.

I kind of think RCS consoles and abilities which modify turn ought to be based on ships with a 10 turn rate. So a console which adds 35% now, would add a flat +3.5 instead no matter which ship it's put on. Or if you wanted base it on ships with a 12 turn (typical for science ships) which would give +4.2 for the same console. The point is that a flat addition would encourage RCS consoles to be used to compensate for crappy turning rather than to min/max ships with already exceptional turning.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,450
# 159
02-06-2013, 03:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by virusdancer View Post
It's not the Cmdr/LCdr rank ability slots themselves. It's the abilities available on the way up.

X, X, X, X
X, X, X


When you only have 5 abilities to choose from for the Ensign slots, where 4 of the 5 are in the same group, you don't have many choices.

So you move on to LT slots. There are 7 new abilities. 3 in one group, 2 in another group, and 2 not in a group. You can also take R2 of those 5 Ensign abilities - they're still in the same groups they were at R1 though.

If you took EPtS1 and EPtW1, it's unlikely that you're going to take another EPt at LT. Maybe you took one EPt1 and ET1 and you'll take another EPt2 at LT. So you've still got the choice of one of those 7 new abilities.

So you move on to the LCdr slots. There are 2 new abilities. They don't share a group. Overall, you have a choice of 14 abilities for each of those LCdr slots. There are 8 groups for those 14 abilities. Doesn't sound too bad. Well, you've already picked 4 abilities that may have resulted in 2 abilities in each group. There's nothing saying that you can't use 3 from the same group. With Eng BOFF abilities though, the way the CDs work - odds are something's just going to be sitting there unused. Also, certain rotations of two abilities almost precludes the use of a third.

Btw, don't forget that ET's sharing space with TT and ST.

And then you've got that final Cmdr slot. 7 abilities (9 if you count the R2s as well as the R3s). No new abilities - no new groups. Depending on what you've selected along the way, you may have limited your effective choices.

Compare that to Tac or Sci. Tac has more choices and abilities, but it's going to be limited by weapons. Sci has more choices and abilities than even Tac, but it's going to be limited by skill build. Eng's limited by simply being limited in choices and abilities, but it's also further limited by weapons and skill build as well.

Is it too much to ask that each of the groups have a similar amount of choices - with those choices being balanced by opportunity cost. Tac should have more. Eng should definitely have more. Those "more" shouldn't just be awesomemegabonus time - they should still present some opportunity cost.

If you've got X skills and Y weapons, then Z are your choices. Whether it's Tac or Eng. Sci's obviously going to be that special case since it's so heavily tied into skills.

It's even been suggested in similar discussions that only Ensign rank or En/Lt rank abilities be added. Even if you could only take R1 or R1/2 of something - that still has that opportunity cost either in other ability selection, weapon choice, or skill build - it could go a long way not only improving Cruisers...but improving any vessel that has at least one Engineering BOFF slot.
Ens: EPTS1, EPTA1 or EPTW1 or EPTE1 (probably aux for support build)
Lt: ET2 x 1 or 2, Aux2damp (if needed vs stun heavy team)
LtCmdr:ES2, Aux2Sif2 or ES2
Cmr: ES3 or Aux2Sif3 or ET3
Doffs:Eptx cooldown reducing doffs, ES doff(s), and/or maint doff(s)

For variety add in EWP w/doffs, or DEM w/doffs.

Again these ships (Fed support cruisers) are meant to repair.

T4 passives/rom sci consoles aside, pressure damage cruisers are different. They don't have 2 tac consoles for starters. To me I just can get past using the right tool for the job, instead of trying to redesign a tool away from what it was originally built for. I don't see anything in Eng Boff layouts that prevents them from doing this role.


Quote:
Originally Posted by virusdancer View Post
My Fed Eng flies a Chel Gret - Escort.
My KDF Eng flies a Mirror Vor'cha/Kamarag - Battle Cruiser.
My Fed Sci flies a Mirror RSV - Science.
My KDF Tac flies a Mirror Vo'quv - Carrier.

The only toon that comes close to filling the stereotypical role is the Fed Sci. Course, I doubt he could kill you if you were AFK. However, the Tac/Tac next to him could kill you pressing his spacebar with his pinkytoe while eating Cheetos and watching a movie. That's the closest any of them come to the stereotypical role. (And no, that's not a challenge - it's not a specific "you" - it's just the generic you as in somebody.)

The KDF Tac's actually the closest thing to a healer out of that group. She'll drop FoMM on whatever target's been called or needs it, she'll TI teammates, and isn't stingy with the heals. I feel safer with the GDF with that much hull than on an Escort as well. It's funny seeing how much hull you have left even at 30%.

I DPS with both Engineers - though the KDF Eng will also tank in PvE or bait in PUGland. The Chel's sporting Beams and the Vor'cha/Kamarag are using torps.

I'm fully aware that a Tac could do more damage in the Chel Grett than the Eng can.
I'm fully aware that the Eng could do more damage with DHCs than Beams.

The Tac's also more likely to die than the Eng though.
With DHCs you're fighting for positioning to use them which can leave you exposed - with the Beams, they're doing their thing while I'm making sure I'm not exposed.

Tac/Tac have a tendency to disengage and run away. So much has been min/maxed around trying to deliver that alpha... I try to min/max to go "oh that tickled" at the alpha while winning a battle of attrition. If I was a Tac in that Chel Grett and using DHCs... man, I'd probably have quit by now - dying too much and doing garbage for damage because of it. I don't though. I'm an Eng in it with Beams. I plod along - have fun - then I'm outnumbered or a Sci's making me call him daddy...and then I respawn.

That's not a VD's awesome by any means. There are folks out there that would shred me regardless of what I'm flying. Hell, there's folks out there that would shred me and any friends I brought along. They're effin' awesome.

But yeah, all that aside - I agree that folks should look at their playstyle - what they want to do - and plan accordingly. That doesn't mean folks can't look at something and see there's something wrong with it.

I hate posting in these threads at times, because I often feel that I get lumped in with all the crazies. No genuine offense meant to them, but c'mon - they're freaking loons.

For damage:

Tac > Eng
Escort > Cruiser

Which means Tac/Escort > Eng/Escort & Tac/Cruiser > Eng/Cruiser. Eng/Escort vs. Tac/Cruiser...that's a tough one. Heh, Eng/Bug > Tac/Star Cruiser. That's safe, right?

I don't buy into the Eng should be able to do the same damage as the Tac. I don't buy into the Cruiser should be able to do the same damage as the Escort.

Doesn't mean I don't see problems with Engineers, Engineer BOFFs, and Cruisers. Heck, I think even Tac Captains and Tac BOFFs need some love. Sci? Yeah, they need some love from the Eng and Tac Captains in their Cruisers and Escorts.
Escort > Cruiser depends on the escort and cruiser in question and the type of damage desired. This thread has focused on Fed support cruisers, not BCs nor hybrids. I still haven't seen anything wrong w/cruisers even if I conceded the Eng Boff issue which I don't.

Eng Captains sure.

Pressure DPS w/all the new passive repair procs and FT shield resistance procs, sure.

Eng Boff powers, no.

Cruisers, no.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,450
# 160
02-06-2013, 03:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by shimmerless View Post
I still don't understand why Fed snoozers have the turn rate that they do. They mechanically can't equip DCs/DHCs even if they wanted to, so what's the big deal?
This goes back to faction balance. KDF, including BCs, were designed for Hit and Run tactics. They need to be better vs the Feds in order to keep that tactic viable.
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