Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,395
# 161
02-06-2013, 04:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by p2wsucks View Post
This goes back to faction balance. KDF, including BCs, were designed for Hit and Run tactics. They need to be better vs the Feds in order to keep that tactic viable.
In the days before lockboxes and fleet vessels you might have had half a point. However, any niche that Fed snoozers may have once fit has been completely eroded by cross-faction/fleet ships that outclass them both at healing/protection (Wells, Recluse) and sustained damage or maneuverability (pretty much every Klinkydink snoozer). Even on a stat-by-stat basis Fed snoozers are terribly outclassed: the Fl. Vorcha has a frankly ridonkulous 1.1 mod to the Fleet Stargazer's .94, for instance).

Some moar evidence that considering Cryptic calls themselves DS9 fanboys, they must've been watching a different show to the one I did (pay close attention to each appearance of a Galaxy class in the clip):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bWi-pJLO2m4

vids and guides and stuff

[9:52] [Zone #11] Neal@trapper1532: im a omega force shadow oprative and a maoc elite camander and here i am taking water samples
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 802
# 162
02-06-2013, 05:33 PM
Or how the vor'cha effortlessly keeps up with the hero defiant.

-= ISE: 12:19 -=- CSE 12:41 -=- KASE 11:59 -=- HSe 8:06 total =-
-= KAGE 5:43 =-
[7:07] [Combat (Self)] Your Dual Disruptor Banks - Overload II deals 123086 (41096) Disruptor Damage(Critical) to Assimilated Carrier.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 12,247
# 163
02-06-2013, 05:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by p2wsucks View Post
Ens: EPTS1, EPTA1 or EPTW1 or EPTE1 (probably aux for support build)
Lt: ET2 x 1 or 2, Aux2damp (if needed vs stun heavy team)
LtCmdr:ES2, Aux2Sif2 or ES2
Cmr: ES3 or Aux2Sif3 or ET3
Doffs:Eptx cooldown reducing doffs, ES doff(s), and/or maint doff(s)

For variety add in EWP w/doffs, or DEM w/doffs.

Again these ships (Fed support cruisers) are meant to repair.

T4 passives/rom sci consoles aside, pressure damage cruisers are different. They don't have 2 tac consoles for starters. To me I just can get past using the right tool for the job, instead of trying to redesign a tool away from what it was originally built for. I don't see anything in Eng Boff layouts that prevents them from doing this role.
It's not just Cruisers, though - it's those Ensign Engineering BOFFs.

If there's just a single Lt Eng BOFF - is that going to vary much from ship to ship? Compare that to Tac or Sci.

Lt and En? How much variety are you looking at? Compare to Tac and Sci?

It's almost always going to be the same abilities selected for the Engineering BOFFs. How many are you going to change depending on if you're doing Support, Tanking, or "Pressure" Damage?

Then look at the sheer variety for Tacs. Are you using Cannons? Are you using Beams? Are you using Torps? Are you using Mines? Are you using a mix? Going to run dual TT or have you DOFF'd TT to run one and boost APs because you don't want to run 3+ Teams? Are you running dual APO or just one because you're using PH from Sci as well?

Look at it for Sci... and it makes Tacs look limited in choice.

Go back to Eng, eh?

EPtA for support or EPtW for pressure.
ES for support or DEM for pressure.

Where does BP fit in? What about AB? What about higher ranks or lower ranks of other abilities?

It's not just a case of having a more limited selection of both abilities and groups - it's also a case that some of the abilities simply don't fit in with anything outside of playing in your sleep through replay missions.

What Cruiser should use AB3?
What Cruiser should use BP3?
What Cruiser should use EPtA3?

I still can't get past the feeling that they created Tacs/Escorts, Sci/SVs, and then added in Eng/Cruisers.

Look at SVs. Subsystem Targeting? So they have innate Tac BOFF abilities? Sensor Analysis? You mean something that a Tac bridge officer might be doing in the shows or movies?

Look at Sci BOFF abilities. HE? Screams Engineering. PH? Screams Engineering.

But then again, RSP/ES both scream Science. Boarding Party screams Tactical.

One can easily go through and see where things are mixed up in various areas. They're just things that have always bugged me.

While so many folks are off wanting the Cruisers to be Escorts - I've just done my best /picard while looking at everything else...
Maal, Klingon, Mogh - Vegar, Orion, Marauder - R'ebel, Romulan, Haakona
Willard the Rat, Reman, F.T'varo - Rave, J.Trill, Kar'Fi - Mysk, Gorn, Varanus
Kopor, Nausicaan, Guramba - Nivuh, Ferasan, B'rel - Venit, Lethean, M.Qin
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,457
# 164
02-06-2013, 06:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by shimmerless View Post
In the days before lockboxes and fleet vessels you might have had half a point. However, any niche that Fed snoozers may have once fit has been completely eroded by cross-faction/fleet ships that outclass them both at healing/protection (Wells, Recluse) and sustained damage or maneuverability (pretty much every Klinkydink snoozer). Even on a stat-by-stat basis Fed snoozers are terribly outclassed: the Fl. Vorcha has a frankly ridonkulous 1.1 mod to the Fleet Stargazer's .94, for instance).

Some moar evidence that considering Cryptic calls themselves DS9 fanboys, they must've been watching a different show to the one I did (pay close attention to each appearance of a Galaxy class in the clip):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bWi-pJLO2m4
1st KDF don't have snoozer Cruisers. The closest they have is a the Carrier which aside form the Brel is all they get for decent sci options. The target of the repairs matter which is why Fed Escorts are better. Feds have better Sci, Escort, and Support Cruiser options including Fleet ships. KDF have better heavy pressure DPS Cruisers, they have weak Raiders, and the Vet ship a Raider/Destoyer hybrid.

Lotto ships are by in large designed to be better than all others. This doesn't mean other ships can't fill their roles. The blurring of the factions has less to do w/this and more w/Feds having options for mounting cannons on all ship types and options for pets on all ship types.

But, none of this means Fed support Cruisers are underpowered.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,457
# 165
02-06-2013, 06:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by virusdancer View Post
It's not just Cruisers, though - it's those Ensign Engineering BOFFs.

If there's just a single Lt Eng BOFF - is that going to vary much from ship to ship? Compare that to Tac or Sci.

Lt and En? How much variety are you looking at? Compare to Tac and Sci?

It's almost always going to be the same abilities selected for the Engineering BOFFs. How many are you going to change depending on if you're doing Support, Tanking, or "Pressure" Damage?

Then look at the sheer variety for Tacs. Are you using Cannons? Are you using Beams? Are you using Torps? Are you using Mines? Are you using a mix? Going to run dual TT or have you DOFF'd TT to run one and boost APs because you don't want to run 3+ Teams? Are you running dual APO or just one because you're using PH from Sci as well?

Look at it for Sci... and it makes Tacs look limited in choice.

Go back to Eng, eh?

EPtA for support or EPtW for pressure.
ES for support or DEM for pressure.

Where does BP fit in? What about AB? What about higher ranks or lower ranks of other abilities?

It's not just a case of having a more limited selection of both abilities and groups - it's also a case that some of the abilities simply don't fit in with anything outside of playing in your sleep through replay missions.

What Cruiser should use AB3?
What Cruiser should use BP3?
What Cruiser should use EPtA3?

I still can't get past the feeling that they created Tacs/Escorts, Sci/SVs, and then added in Eng/Cruisers.

Look at SVs. Subsystem Targeting? So they have innate Tac BOFF abilities? Sensor Analysis? You mean something that a Tac bridge officer might be doing in the shows or movies?

Look at Sci BOFF abilities. HE? Screams Engineering. PH? Screams Engineering.

But then again, RSP/ES both scream Science. Boarding Party screams Tactical.

One can easily go through and see where things are mixed up in various areas. They're just things that have always bugged me.

While so many folks are off wanting the Cruisers to be Escorts - I've just done my best /picard while looking at everything else...
Lets stick w/a ship a single lt eng slot. Eptx and Epty and doffs to reduce cooldowns. One of the Ept will be shields. This leaves 3 options for the 2nd slot. W/o Doffs it's 2x EPTS. Eitherway, other than TT distribution power, imo, this is the most powerful low end Boff slot and it's why so many want more than 1 low Eng slot.

For a ship w/just a Lt Sci. HE and TSS will most likely be what's selected w/HE pretty much required for the counter abilities. ST, PH, TBR, TB are reasonable options. But, most will be TSS and HE.

For a ship w/just a Lt Tac TT is nearly required. This leaves APD or APB or BO2 or TSSx or TorpHY or TS or a Mine Pattern. This assumes Doffs for cyclying a single TT copy. Seems Tac has most flexibilty, but really in terms of impact TT is only one significant on ship w/just a Lt Tac. Personally, I tend to fly w/only one TT and use other means either piloting/turning, doffs, other boff abilities to open up other team options as debuff counters.

In the end while Ens Eng options aren't many they are very powerful options as are the Lt options.

Again why does this hurt support cruisers or lead them to be underpowered?
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,457
# 166
02-06-2013, 06:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by lostusthorn View Post
Or how the vor'cha effortlessly keeps up with the hero defiant.
This is just a bad defiant pilot, most likely someone who's not using hyper impulse engines and or putting power to engines.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 12,247
# 167
02-06-2013, 07:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by p2wsucks View Post
Lets stick w/a ship a single lt eng slot. Eptx and Epty and doffs to reduce cooldowns. One of the Ept will be shields. This leaves 3 options for the 2nd slot. W/o Doffs it's 2x EPTS. Eitherway, other than TT distribution power, imo, this is the most powerful low end Boff slot and it's why so many want more than 1 low Eng slot.
Yep, 2 is better than one. I tend to run EPtS1, EPtW1, AtS1 or EPtS1, ET1, AtS1. Thing is, with those, there's not going to be much variety beyond that. There are only a couple of the abilities that have any value compared to the others depending on what you're doing.

I mean, you've laid out pretty much what everybody's going to run. 12 different abilities with 6 groups, but pretty much everybody's going to run 2 from the same group. That's an issue. I've just had an idea, that I'm to post as a separate post in this thread.

But in speaking of folks wanting two Eng BOFFs, what happens when you get to a third?I absolutely hate the Negh and Gal-R because of that third Eng Ensign. That's 8 Eng BOFF abilities you need to slot when there's only 14 different abilities in 8 groups.

You're basically looking at:

EPtS1, no higher level of EPtX/ET
EPtW/A1, no higher level of EPtX/ET
ET1

At least with only two, you could slot EPtX1/ET1 in the Ensign and go with a EPtX2 in one of the LT slots or if you were trying something, you could even drop EPtX3 in a LCdr slot. With only having two groups, having three Ensign slots kills any variety you may have with the rest of the slots.

Quote:
Originally Posted by p2wsucks View Post
For a ship w/just a Lt Sci. HE and TSS will most likely be what's selected w/HE pretty much required for the counter abilities. ST, PH, TBR, TB are reasonable options. But, most will be TSS and HE.
HE is pretty much required. The TSS will depend on the rest of the build. One could easily feel that it's covered elsewhere. If they're missing APO(s), then PH becomes an option. ST, even without the resistance of TSS, is an option because of what it clears. Both TB and TBR are viable options depending on the rest of the build and playstyle. TR for killing spam. Now they can DOFF SS for the recharge debuff. Etc, etc, etc... options galore...even with the HE being pretty much required.

Quote:
Originally Posted by p2wsucks View Post
For a ship w/just a Lt Tac TT is nearly required. This leaves APD or APB or BO2 or TSSx or TorpHY or TS or a Mine Pattern. This assumes Doffs for cyclying a single TT copy. Seems Tac has most flexibilty, but really in terms of impact TT is only one significant on ship w/just a Lt Tac. Personally, I tend to fly w/only one TT and use other means either piloting/turning, doffs, other boff abilities to open up other team options as debuff counters.
TT is another one that's all but considered necessary to have at least one. I've managed without it on a single ship with a Eng at the helm. With everything else it had in regard to heals and only having that LT Tac...it was better served doing something else and was more than manageable.

As for the the LT slot itself - yep, what weapons are you running - are you playing defensive - etc, etc, etc - options galore...even with the TT being all but required.

Quote:
Originally Posted by p2wsucks View Post
In the end while Ens Eng options aren't many they are very powerful options as are the Lt options.
What options? At the start of your reply, you basically listed EPtX and EPtY. 2 abilities out of 12, where EPtS is always going to be one of them. So it's really just 1 of 12 abilities, where that ability may very well end up being another EPtS. What options?

Quote:
Originally Posted by p2wsucks View Post
Again why does this hurt support cruisers or lead them to be underpowered?
It's not just about Support Cruisers though.

The OP's initial comparison is an Assault Cruiser vs. Patrol Escort. He then goes on to include the Assault, Star, and even the Ambassador in discussing high hull/low turn cruisers. He includes the non-Fed D'kora. He does not include BCs because of their turn.

Even Fed Cruisers is not just about Support Cruisers. I still find it odd that they decided to call the Ambassador a Support Cruiser. If anything, they should have renamed the Star Cruisers as Support Cruisers and made the Ambassador a Star Cruiser. That's neither here nor there though. There are Assault Cruisers, Star Cruisers, a Support Cruiser, and even Dreadnought Cruisers.

It's about the limited options for Ensign Engineering BOFFs, how that affects potential choices for additional ranks, and even how those additional ranked abilities may even pale in comparison to taking a higher rank of the same ability you took at Ensign.

And this is something that, while it has the worst effect on Cruisers/Cmdr-LCdr ships, it's something that's actually affecting all ships...
Maal, Klingon, Mogh - Vegar, Orion, Marauder - R'ebel, Romulan, Haakona
Willard the Rat, Reman, F.T'varo - Rave, J.Trill, Kar'Fi - Mysk, Gorn, Varanus
Kopor, Nausicaan, Guramba - Nivuh, Ferasan, B'rel - Venit, Lethean, M.Qin
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 12,247
# 168
02-06-2013, 07:52 PM
Okay, in my last post I said I was going to do a separate post on an idea that came to me. In looking back at the OP while completing my previous post, I saw the OP had already mentioned it:

Quote:
Originally Posted by borgresearcher View Post
or ( i love this one ) adding 4 innate emergy power to subsystem working almost the same as the innate beam targeting skills on science vessels
like : emergy power to shields, emergency power to engines, weapons and aux
these skills would have 1 minute cooldown and 30sec shared, giving +15 power to the subsystem and repairing it ( not sure if this integrated emergy power to shields would give shield points, but not shield resistance)
While the specifics of the innate abilities would need to be tossed about and tested, oddly enough - it seems pretty damn logical for the four EPt abilities to be innate abilities of Cruisers.

But wait, I thought I was looking for more - not less? Well, like I mentioned previously - HE and PH should be Eng abilities. There's also the option of dropping LT abilities down to EN...while also adding abilities, even potential variants of the EPt abilities...etc, etc, etc.

It's something that could both help Cruisers and even other ship captains...

...but inevitably it will fall on deaf ears.
Maal, Klingon, Mogh - Vegar, Orion, Marauder - R'ebel, Romulan, Haakona
Willard the Rat, Reman, F.T'varo - Rave, J.Trill, Kar'Fi - Mysk, Gorn, Varanus
Kopor, Nausicaan, Guramba - Nivuh, Ferasan, B'rel - Venit, Lethean, M.Qin
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 230
# 169
02-06-2013, 10:18 PM
I have built some really strong cruiser builds that give the best escort pilots a run for their money. The thing I have seen with running cruisers is that a escort can keep all guns on it at all times and do mass burst damage between tactical teams making it difficult to fight them. so in the end a good escort will always beat a good cruiser just because of that one issue. The cruiser cannot put out the damage to burst between the escorts tac teams.

I personally believe they are outclassed as far as pvp goes you can run a sci ship and put up about the same heals and damage but be more maneuverable and more survivable plus all the goodies that come with running a sci ship!
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,395
# 170
02-07-2013, 05:57 AM
After watching a bunch of ST clips I decided to take the Fl. Excel out for a spin... and it turns out what Drunk says is absolutely true, it's extremely difficult to deal effective or sticky damage with beams these days. It's still kinda possible to kill stuff but you have to go straight up balls out, I mean full Tac buffs roaring, A2B juicing it hard, etc. I had a lot more success when I finally just switched to single cannons. Silly.

vids and guides and stuff

[9:52] [Zone #11] Neal@trapper1532: im a omega force shadow oprative and a maoc elite camander and here i am taking water samples
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