Captain
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# 1 DPS and PvP
02-06-2013, 08:00 PM
Okay, so it comes up often - very often - about what ships can and can't DPS and what weapons can and can't DPS.

What do people consider to be sufficient DPS in PvP?

How are they measuring that DPS?

It's just something for those that may find it easier to work with actual numbers rather than what can appear to be vague labels such as good or bad.

Thanks.


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Fleet Admiral Geist, Klingon Science Officer
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# 2
02-06-2013, 08:16 PM
DPS in it self, only important in pve. in pvp its effective damage, abrupt damage, well timed damage that is most important. with DPS and effective damage, DHCs can do both. no other weapon types can do sufficient of ether though. thats the problem.
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Captain
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# 3
02-06-2013, 08:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
DPS in it self, only important in pve. in pvp its effective damage, abrupt damage, well timed damage that is most important. with DPS and effective damage, DHCs can do both. no other weapon types can do sufficient of ether though. thats the problem.
Effective Damage, Abrupt Damage, Well Timed Damage, etc, etc, etc are still all forms of DPS. DPS is just the average damage per second over a period of time. That period of time might be a few seconds with Burst DPS. It might be 5-10 minutes of Sustained DPS in a particular fight. It could be Overall DPS for an entire mission/episode, etc, etc, etc.

And again, "sufficient" - is a very vague term. And there are countless posts from folks saying that it's not just DHCs. Which in of itself is the problem. Tom says X. Jerry says Y. Neither Tom nor Jerry, mind you, are ever specific about the numbers. They both use only the most vague references possible.

If one steps back and looks at it, the basic aspects will obviously appear (even though this is somewhat vague in of itself):

You have to take down the shields (unless you don't have to - killing folks with full shields can happen).
You have to take down the hull.

Target is...dead.

But it's not that simple.

The shields may or may not have innate shield damage reduction.
The hull's going to have whatever damage resistance skills/gear gives it.

But it's not that simple.

Both shield damage reduction and hull damage resistance can be buffed by abilities. Are any of those running at the time of the attack?

But it's not that simple.

Does the target have any shield/hull HoTs running at the time of the attack?

But it's not that simple.

Does the attack leave enough time for the target to trigger any additional resistances/heals? Are there any heals/resists that proc with the attack?

But it's not that simple.

Does the attack leave enough time for a teammate to heal or buff the resists of the target?

But it's not that simple.

Are you a Sci or do you have a Sci that can strip buffs? Are you draining power? Are you applying negative shield regen? Do you have any Phaser or Disruptor procs?

But it's not that simple.

Don't forget about Accuracy vs. Defense - are you even able to hit the target with your damage?

But it's not that simple.

Do they have any placs - is your alpha going to go to waste?

But it's not that simple.

Are they a Sci or did a Sci on their team strip your buffs as you start the attack? Did you get hit by any power drains or have a Phaser or subsystem targeting kill your weapons?

But it's not that simple.

Are they built like a tank or are they built like a glass cannon?

-=-=-=-

The list of variables involved can go on and on and on and on.

In saying that a Tac in an Escort/Battle Cruiser with DHCs is the only way to get a kill... well, that's massively simplifying things, no?

So working off of that, I ask - what DPS (Burst DPS if I need to be specific) does one need for it to be sufficient - to be considered effective?

It's even one of those things, where if folks were to elaborate - even if it's as the attacker or as the victim... what size hits make you fidget, what size hits do you not even notice, what size hits are you looking at in the log while waiting to respawn...that sort of thing.


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# 4
02-06-2013, 09:56 PM
Question 1:

Can you deal enough damage fast enough to secure a kill before the target or his allies are able to react to you?

Question 2:

If the answer to question 1 is no, can you sustain enough DPS, after resistances, to exceed the HPS being delivered to your target to secure a kill before succumbing to return fire yourself?
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# 5
02-06-2013, 10:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by thegrimcorsair View Post
Question 1:

Can you deal enough damage fast enough to secure a kill before the target or his allies are able to react to you?

Question 2:

If the answer to question 1 is no, can you sustain enough DPS, after resistances, to exceed the HPS being delivered to your target to secure a kill before succumbing to return fire yourself?
I suppose it comes down to a guestimate in the end, eh? An average. This "X" is generally enough burst. This "Y" is generally enough sustained damage. You want to be "X+" or "Y+", but in most cases "X" and "Y" will get the job done - obviously there will be exceptions, more "X" and more "Y" is always better as long as you don't leave yourself open to being the victim of "X" or "Y" yourself.

When you're looking at 9k+ shields/not including shield damage reduction and 40-50k+ hull/not including hull resists - if you're trying to do "X" before the guy can react, you're looking at 60k+ damage/not including shield damage reduction or hull resists in 1-2 seconds. DPB'd Trics come to mind...not DHCs.

Folks using Phaser DHCs, hoping for a lucky proc to take out the shields so less damage is required. Tet Glider to apply that negative shield regen hit so the shields vaporize faster and less damage is required. Like I said in the other post, there's just so many variables.

It's not a case of questioning whether DHCs are the better weapon if you can maintain some semblance of the 45 arc on the target. It's not a case of questioning whether they're going to shine with a Tac captain. It's not even a case of questioning whether putting the DHCs and a Tac captain in an Escort is going to create years worth of threads from folks complaining about them.

It's saying that anything else is worthless...is what I question. If XYZ's what you want and ABC's what you want to avoid, what is it that XYZ is doing and what is it that ABC is doing - hard numbers.

TBH, it goes both ways though. For those saying they can get it done with XYZ, where are there numbers to support those claims as well?

There's just too much of a focus on XYZ/ABC, imho, while ignoring the rest that's going on. The XYZ that blows his wad while the target's fully buffed...is not likely to acknowledge what they did wrong...they'll think something else is wrong. The ABC guy that sees the target pop after throwing his cottonballs at it - might think they're God's Gift to PvP...oblivious to the buff stripping and debuffs that took place to render the target killable by cottonballs.

I hate how much of what I'm saying is as vague as the stuff I'm trying to see as less vague. That's the nature of it, in my mind though, it is pretty vague. Opportunity presents itself or you create that opportunity, and the target dies. Too many folks make it out to be little more than some early 90s FPS game...


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# 6
02-07-2013, 12:05 PM
It is a good question though.. Just how much damage or DPS is good enough for PVP?

And what kind of Gear would you need to accomplish that level of damage?

Very good questions. Wish I had the answer for those. But math is not my area of expertise. :\
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# 7
02-07-2013, 12:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by webdeath View Post
It is a good question though.. Just how much damage or DPS is good enough for PVP?

And what kind of Gear would you need to accomplish that level of damage?

Very good questions. Wish I had the answer for those. But math is not my area of expertise. :\
I've been trying to look at it from the what killed me side, and I can't really go with just damage. Most of the time, it's just a case of being debuffed/tractored/crew dead/5+ minute respawns...and well...somebody could probably kill me by blowing bubbles, lol.

I tend to fly tanky - whether I'm in an Escort or a Cruiser. I'm useless with DHCs, so I don't use them outside of PvE - so I can't tell from that angle. I don't have my damage to look at on a kill. With my deaths, being the target of an alpha, etc - I've always gone more with the feeling rather than the numbers.

I probably need to log a few matches and just look at what killed me, trying to note the time of my deaths so I can go back and see what happened.

The only incoming damage thing I can remember was a guy that did somewhere between 50-60k in 2-3 seconds, but that wasn't fast enough to kill the guy I was on. It would have obliterated my Sci or Tac in a SV or Escort, but not either of my Engs.

Maybe I'll do that - parse different matches in different ships on different toons, to get an idea.


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# 8
02-07-2013, 12:31 PM
It's all about burst damage and timed alpha strikes. Otherwise you are just shooting at something until the alpha's are up and nukes are ready.
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# 9
02-07-2013, 05:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by webdeath View Post
It is a good question though.. Just how much damage or DPS is good enough for PVP?

And what kind of Gear would you need to accomplish that level of damage?

Very good questions. Wish I had the answer for those. But math is not my area of expertise. :\
Strangely enough math is purportedly mine. I have spent many hours elucidating math noobs on the merits of algebra over trial and error. And frankly thats what alot of this game is about. Meta-game.

Figuring out what should happen is part 1, executing a plan is part 2.

As someone who has been calling out "dps" types for years, Ive said all along this game is about meaningful burst damage, even if that means very slow refresh or recycle times. Thus making damage per second is lower.

And of course dont forget that the battle situation is what determines the necessary required "burst" to down a specific target. Their current heals being obvious, the overall battle position being more relevant.


To answer how much dps you need to know who when where and why. God knows most bug ships flown by good players have many more "skillpoints" into defensive measures than offensive. There base tac skills and crf is "usually" enough.

But behold the awesome power of an uber alpha bop, and you will know that dps is moot for all but that one second when he killed you.
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# 10
02-07-2013, 05:37 PM
This is from three CnH. I had spent two hours earlier in Ker'rat (split between both sides), but that was...well, pointless.

It's from my incoming damage - just for DHCs.

Average
MinHit
MaxHit

Dual Heavy Antiproton Cannons
556.88
58
1,319

Dual Heavy Antiproton Cannons: Rapid Fire I
1,096.92
176
1,757

Dual Heavy Antiproton Cannons: Rapid Fire II
908.68
154
2,475

Dual Heavy Disruptor Cannons
332.59
31
1,375

Dual Heavy Disruptor Cannons: Rapid Fire I
677.25
55
1,066

Dual Heavy Disruptor Cannons: Rapid Fire II
340.00
52
750

Dual Heavy Phased Polaron Cannons
602.90
21
2,318

Dual Heavy Phased Polaron Cannons: Rapid Fire I
581.87
29
3,915

Dual Heavy Phased Polaron Cannons: Rapid Fire III
739.78
41
4,969

Dual Heavy Phased Tetryon Cannons
581.31
74
2,543

Dual Heavy Phased Tetryon Cannons: Rapid Fire II
543.31
81
2,406

Dual Heavy Phased Tetryon Cannons: Rapid Fire III
797.59
107
1,903

Dual Heavy Phaser Cannons
387.30
61
1,109

Dual Heavy Phaser Cannons: Rapid Fire I
629.00
52
1,127

Dual Heavy Polarized Disruptor Cannons
459.50
69
1,391

Dual Heavy Polarized Disruptor Cannons: Scatter Volley I
556.50
109
1,183

Dual Heavy Tetryon Cannons
498.06
49
2,148

Dual Heavy Tetryon Cannons: Rapid Fire I
628.00
145
1,111

Dual Heavy Tetryon Cannons: Rapid Fire II
247.75
36
557

Dual Heavy Tetryon Cannons: Rapid Fire III
504.88
73
1,215

They all just seem low to me, kind of very low. They're better than what Ker'rat showed, but they're just low. The closest one to what I was expecting was the CRF3 Phased Polaron DHC hit for 4969.

So I check his hits with it (and lucky me was the highest), but his numbers were:

750.57
38
4,969 (yeah, lucky me)

Thing is, his next highest hit (lucky me again) was only 2,868. Have to figure that almost 5k shot landed when I was tractored, debuffed to Hell, etc, etc.

The largest hit I took was a 13k crit from BO2 Phased Polaron DBB (from the same guy).

For what I was expecting (5k+), I took the following:

1x THY1 Photon
1x TS1 Quantum
4x Isometric
1x BO3 Disruptor DBB
3x BO2 Phased Polaron DBB
5x BO3 Phased Polaron DBB

So 15 5k+ hits.
10k+: 2
9-10k 0
8-9k: 2
7-8k: 4
6-7k: 3
5-6k: 4

Out of 9743 hits it says I took.

For Beam Arrays (not including DBBs, just Arrays), for those that might be curious for a comparison - this is a quick rundown on the Avg/Max Array damage I took:

Disruptor: 224/1338
Disruptor BO1: 1586/2764
Disruptor BO3: 1748/2996
Disruptor FAW2: 263/1348
Phased Tetryon: 179/1149
Phaser: 163/836
Polaron: 165/758
Polaron FAW2: 246/981
Romulan Plasma: 275/1175
Romulan Plasma Hull Melt: 724/1443 (is that the 3pc Harness when you've got the Experimental?)

So like I said earlier, the numbers for those DHCs seem way too low.

What kind of numbers (no, doesn't have to be all pretty and crap) are folks seeing with their DHCs and the hits they're taking from DHCs?


"Wheeeee, this is kind of fun. Oopsie...my bad."
Fleet Admiral Geist, Klingon Science Officer
Endless, Hazari Destroyer
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