Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,192
# 171
02-07-2013, 07:09 AM
Cruisers are fine. Just escorts have too much surveability. A good escort player who has gear and passives, is impossible to kill for cruisers. keep in mind aiming 70 degree full broadside is much more harder than 45 degree for escort. and the full broadside drains so much energy the burst sucks. Irocanically engineering abilities like DEM sucks with beams as well.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 13,038
# 172
02-07-2013, 08:00 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by omgrandalthor View Post
I have built some really strong cruiser builds that give the best escort pilots a run for their money. The thing I have seen with running cruisers is that a escort can keep all guns on it at all times and do mass burst damage between tactical teams making it difficult to fight them. so in the end a good escort will always beat a good cruiser just because of that one issue. The cruiser cannot put out the damage to burst between the escorts tac teams.

I personally believe they are outclassed as far as pvp goes you can run a sci ship and put up about the same heals and damage but be more maneuverable and more survivable plus all the goodies that come with running a sci ship!
How do you lose to an Escort in a Cruiser? A Sciscort? Are they receiving outside healing from somebody that's also doing damage to you? Do they just outgear you that much? Did you build the Cruiser trying to get a fast kill instead of the attrition kill? Are they just the folks that you acknowledge could kill you if you were flying DS9 or a Unimatrix cause they're just that damn good?

I just don't get this.

Usually the Escort's going to disengage. They know they're not going to kill you and that eventually you're going to kill them. They might return with friends, they might return when you're in a weakened state to land the killing blow, or maybe they even hang around while calling in friends.

I get that some Cruisers just pop...poof...gone...but I've always wondered what the Hell they were doing or if they were simply not paying attention. I've been cloaked, following somebody in, I buff up, get ready to move after the other guys does...but poof - gone. I'm like WTF? Cause when you flip sides and are sitting in your cruiser, that same guy decloaks on you and...it's teehee, that tickled. WTF was that other guy that got popped doing?

The Cruiser should be able to beat the Escort...1on1...eventually. Give that Escort a Healer Cruiser, and your Cruiser's going to lose. You won't get through the healing from a dedicate healer and they're additional pressure damage will be enough for the duo to win in the end.

So you bring a Healer Cruiser too! Does that mean that once again that you can win out in the end? Nope, it won't be enough damage to kill them before the server goes down for weekly maintenance even if you start the fight right after it came back up.

Okay, so bring an Escort of your own! Nope, you're going to lose that fight. You won't have enough combined damage to take them out while you won't have the healing to win the extended fight.

Right here is where a lot of the "hate" for folks flying non-support Cruisers comes into play, imho... sure, the Cruiser is awesome if it's out there by itself. The more players you add into the mix, the weaker the non-support Cruiser becomes - with a sharp decline even when you go from 1v1 to 2v2 that only gets worse from there out.

You're not likely to find many Escortjocks that want to duel attrition Cruisers - the fights take too long, and honestly - sometimes the Cruiser simply wins because they've bored the Escort to death...subconsciously, they just give up (or maybe they even literally fall asleep).

It's where things come up about both Engineers, Engineer BOFFs, and Cruisers...being able to provide additional support to the team. So maybe the guy in the Cruiser's not bringing All Da Healz - but he's actually bringing something to the team.

Look at those BOFF abilities, eh?

Space:
EPtA (self)
EPtE (self)
EPtS (self)
EPtW (self)
ET (self/ally)
AtB (self)
AtD (self)
AtS (self/ally)
BP (target)
DEM (self)
Extend (ally)
RSP (self)
AB (target)
EWP (deployable AoE - offensive)

Ground:
CMB (deployable AoE - offensive)
QF (self/ally)
SR (self/ally)
WM (target)
RPS (self)
SGF (deployable AoE - defensive)
TF (deployable - offensive)
CF (deployable - defensive)
ED (self/ally)
MGF (deployable - defensive)
QMF (deployable - offensive)
CS (self/allies)
FA (target)
SDF (pet summon)

Yeah, you look at Space - you look at Ground - you look at Space - you look at Cryptic and SCREAM WTF????

The same happens with the captain's abilities. WTF, Cryptic, seriously, WTF?

Then you look at the Space abilities again - how many of those should be innate to ships in general or cruisers specifically? How many of those should be Tac or Sci? How many Tac or Sci should be Eng?

It's so broken on so many different levels, it would probably take a STO2.0 even to begin to address everything that's wrong with STO. Course, with the May Update...we're likely just to get more broken crap layered on top of broken crap... but maybe it will be shiny and green, eh?
Rear Admiral Geist, Klingon Science Officer
V.S.S. Oracle, D'Kyr-class Science Vessel
Commander
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 374
# 173
02-07-2013, 08:08 AM
Its because extra health doesn't matter for anything if you can't sustain it.

The resiliency of cruisers has to be in their damage resistance, so that you can outheal the damage dealt to you over the course of a sustained engagement.


Same goes for PvE in STFs - you might as well fly an escort if you aren't absolutely perfect in a cruiser. Extra damage is worth it if you're gonna die in 3 seconds anyway.
More anything?
"MORE EVERYTHING!"
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Foundry Works: Uncharted
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 13,038
# 174
02-07-2013, 08:25 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kiloace View Post
Its because extra health doesn't matter for anything if you can't sustain it.

The resiliency of cruisers has to be in their damage resistance, so that you can outheal the damage dealt to you over the course of a sustained engagement.


Same goes for PvE in STFs - you might as well fly an escort if you aren't absolutely perfect in a cruiser. Extra damage is worth it if you're gonna die in 3 seconds anyway.
And the funniest part about this, imho...is the diminishing returns on resists that doesn't exist on damage.

4 tac consoles vs. 4 eng consoles.
Rear Admiral Geist, Klingon Science Officer
V.S.S. Oracle, D'Kyr-class Science Vessel
Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 434
# 175
02-07-2013, 08:28 AM
If they adjusted issues with yo-yo healing, innate passive healing, and the crazy strong interaction between defense and movement speed I'd like to see Cruisers that have literally 2-3 times more hull capacity. A Cruisers mass should be more obvious in ways other than just their inertia values.

I think someone mentioned altering Beam arrays to fire a single shot per cycle and I like it. But I've been saying it for a while. Cryptic could still calculate the damage as they do now (all the math, number of hits and misses, etc) then apply that damage in a single longer lasting strike. If one of the current multiple shots would have missed, that will reduce the overall impact of the single beam that is fire but it would be more powerful if all were calculated to be a hit. It would add some spike punch, the power levels should function closer to the mechanics of DHCs, and it would look much more like the show. FAW could work, at least graphically, the same way it does now. The disco effect is totally harshing my immersion.

And yes, diminishing returns on Tactical Consoles only makes sense at this point.

I don't miss "Cruisers Online" or FAWscorts but I can recognize the need for some adjustments.
__________________________________________
Foundry: Yet Another Borg Mission
It's terrible but easy, and these Borg are way cooler than the mess STO and Voyager left us.
May not actually be "way" cooler or even "slightly" cooler.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,395
# 176
02-07-2013, 08:36 AM
I have to agree with Hale that the beam firing rate ruins the mood just visually alone. It's really, really fast and when you're cranking 7 - 8 beams it looks ridiculous, like some kind of strobe light porcupine having a seizure.

Up single beam base damage moderately, reduce the firing cycle to one-per-second (like DHCs). Hell even if they just kept the base damage as-is and slashed the cycle I'd be happy, at least you wouldn't be getting ***** by drain to the point where even Engie cap abilities struggle to keep up.

vids and guides and stuff

[9:52] [Zone #11] Neal@trapper1532: im a omega force shadow oprative and a maoc elite camander and here i am taking water samples
Commander
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 449
# 177
02-07-2013, 09:00 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dalnar83 View Post
My cruiser certainly is very cool. Everyone is targeting it in PvP.
Mine too cruisers are the favorite target for escorts A eng capitan in a cruiser has little dmg and little healing" most of which are hull heals" and when the other team like wolves attack him he goes boom
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 13,038
# 178
02-07-2013, 09:02 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevehale View Post
A Cruisers mass should be more obvious in ways other than just their inertia values.
Defiant:
Length - 170.68 meters
Width - 134.11 meters
Height - 30.1 meters
Mass - 355,000 metric tons
Decks - 4
Crew - ~50
...Volume: 688,985.83 m^3

Sovereign:
Length - 685 meters
Width - 250 meters
Height - 88 meters
Mass - 3,205,000 metric tons
Decks - 24
Crew - ~900
...Volume: 15,070,000 m^3

Fleet Defiant Retrofit:
Hull - 33000
Turn - 17
Impulse - 0.20
Inertia - 70
Crew - 50

Fleet Regent:
Hull - 42900
Turn - 7
Impulse - 0.15
Inertia - 30
Crew - 800

Defiant has X of the Sovereign...
4.57% the Volume
11.07% the Mass
6.25% the Crew
242.86% the Turn
133.33% the Impulse Modifier
233.33% the Inertia
76.92% the Hull

Quote:
Originally Posted by stevehale View Post
I don't miss "Cruisers Online" or FAWscorts but I can recognize the need for some adjustments.
Yep, even in the discussions - it tends to be extremes. If you want to make the slightest adjustment, it's taken to some extreme that you want things to shift from the current broken state to some previous broken state...

...usually it's just a case of not wanting the game in any broken state.
Rear Admiral Geist, Klingon Science Officer
V.S.S. Oracle, D'Kyr-class Science Vessel
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,400
# 179
02-07-2013, 10:00 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by virusdancer View Post
Ship stats

Your stats didn't take into consideration "effective" hull/shields through upper tier heals that Cruisers have access to and Escorts do not.

Who has more effective total hull?

The Defiant with 1 Neutronium, and 1 HE for hull heals.

or

The Sovereign with 3 Neutroniums, HE 1, Aux to SIF 3, ET 3.


Obviously the Cruiser could also be tossing those heals to an allied Escort giving them highe effective hull.

I'm just trying to envision the game wondering if fighting a handful of cruisers that each have 200k hull and 50k shields per facing would even be remotely fun.


Quote:
Originally Posted by stevehale
If they adjusted issues with yo-yo healing, innate passive healing, and the crazy strong interaction between defense and movement speed I'd like to see Cruisers that have literally 2-3 times more hull capacity. A Cruisers mass should be more obvious in ways other than just their inertia values.
Wouldn't that just be turning Cruisers into the Borg?


What you're describing seems to be bringing PCs closer to NPCs.


Last edited by ussultimatum; 02-07-2013 at 10:21 AM.
Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 434
# 180
02-07-2013, 10:34 AM
If Cruisers were turned into the Borg as they are represented in this game then that truly would be a nerf, lol.

I think I get your meaning though. The concern is that the Borg are made "more difficult" by boosting their base stats like hull, shields, damage, etc. If that is all that happened it really would be awful. That's why something needs to be done with yoyo healing and all of the innate passive healing (now passive heals are something that the Borg should have more of :x).

The basic idea is that, if cool downs on abilities like heals were reasonable, your cruiser could take a beating but healing up to 100% instantly would be a tremendous strain on your resources. Even if your entire team was healing you then all of those heals are suddenly out of play (or would need to be used more tactically). Or maybe as they did with fighting games for over 20 years, you can only heal so much damage while in battle, even with innate skills or HoTs. Some portion of damage would have to stick no matter what heals were used (while in combat). Incidentally, that's how it should really be across the board in my opinion.

I know it's a lot of work and that there are many details that would need to be ironed out. I think it would be an interesting idea although I know it's not a particularly likely one.
__________________________________________
Foundry: Yet Another Borg Mission
It's terrible but easy, and these Borg are way cooler than the mess STO and Voyager left us.
May not actually be "way" cooler or even "slightly" cooler.
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