Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 13,185
# 181
02-07-2013, 10:41 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ussultimatum View Post
Your stats didn't take into consideration "effective" hull/shields through upper tier heals that Cruisers have access to and Escorts do not.

Who has more effective total hull?

The Defiant with 1 Neutronium, and 1 HE for hull heals.

or

The Sovereign with 3 Neutroniums, HE 1, Aux to SIF 3, ET 3.


Not everything needs to be represented directly in base stats.
Fleet Defiant
2x APO1 or APO1/APO3
TT1 or 2x TT1
EPtS1
AtS1
HE1 or HE2
TSS1 or TSS2
RCS or Tachyokinetic
Neut
SIF
FG
Emitter
Sacrificing one of the 5 Tac Consoles for Borg
MACO Shield/Deflector
Aegis Engines (Hyper w/+5% Defense)
TT Conn DOFFs, AtS DCE DOFF, BFI SDO DOFF?
+10% Defense (Escort)

Fleet Regent
APO1
TT1 or 2x TT1
EPtS1
EPtA1
ET3
RSP1
AtD1
AtS3
HE1 or HE2
TSS1 or TSS2
2x Neut
SIF
Borg
FG
Emitter
MACO Shield/Deflector
Aegis Engines (Hyper w/+5% Defense)
EPt DCE DOFFs, ET ME DOFF, BFI SDO DOFF

Both with an Eng Captain, eh? Both with Enhanced Shield Systems, Emergency Secondary Shielding, Hull-Reparing Nanites, and Superior Shield Repair? Both with 5x Human BOFFs?

With Hull, Shields, Turn, Regens, etc, etc, etc being the same allotment of skill points between the two Captains and then applied to the stats.

edit: I have neither the Fleet Defiant nor Fleet Regent, but I can drop my Fed Eng in an Advanced Escort, Chel Grett Warship, Mirror Assault Cruiser, Mirror Star Cruiser, or Ambassador...to provide more than just base stats. Can tell you right now, though, he's in the Chel Grett.
Vice Admiral Geist, Klingon Science Officer
V.S.S. Oracle, D'Kyr-class Science Vessel

Last edited by virusdancer; 02-07-2013 at 10:51 AM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,400
# 182
02-07-2013, 10:57 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevehale View Post
If Cruisers were turned into the Borg as they are represented in this game then that truly would be a nerf, lol.

I think I get your meaning though. The concern is that the Borg are made "more difficult" by boosting their base stats like hull, shields, damage, etc. If that is all that happened it really would be awful. That's why something needs to be done with yoyo healing and all of the innate passive healing (now passive heals are something that the Borg should have more of :x).

Correct.

However with regards to their passive healing, that's actually one of the biggest complaints I see come from the PvP community.

They do not balance their shields, use EPTS (generally, I think Donatra does) or use TT (these are all damage mitigators that function similar to regeneration).

Increasing their passive healing would only see it become more of a DPS race.




Quote:
Originally Posted by stevehale View Post
The basic idea is that, if cool downs on abilities like heals were reasonable, your cruiser could take a beating but healing up to 100% instantly would ...
Let's imagine that in this game world the cruiser has 200k base hull, 50% resistance, equating to 400k hull. As well as 50k shields.

Then, to keep that in line we:

> Nerf passive healing
> Nerf active healing
> Do we nerf resistances or leave them the same?


And rely on attrition to win battles.


That's very similar to what the borg in STFs are now.



This is not to mention that if the above things happened you'd also have to nerf damage:

2 escorts pumping out even just raw 6k DPS

with 3 other ships putting out raw 3k DPS (made up numbers)

means in 30 seconds these 5 players can deal 630,000 points of damage killing the above Cruiser, and most likely vaporizing any Escort within 5 Seconds (unless we leave active resistance buffing as is in place, such as ES, EPTS, etc.).


Last edited by ussultimatum; 02-07-2013 at 11:00 AM.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,793
# 183
02-07-2013, 12:09 PM
i agree with Hale on the beam array being 1 shot per cycle. i floated that a week ago, might have heard it from me. not only would it make beam arrays look correct, at least from large fed cruisers with arrays, but a single shot per cycle delivering the entire damage that abruptly would make its effect DHC like, it would actually mater.

a mkX beam array deals 200 damage a shot with 4 shots at 160 DPS, make that all from 1 hit and it will deal 800, and then have a lengthy cooldown. at the same time a mkX DHC fires 2 shots at 348 damage each with 696 total, but has 232 DPS.

that would create more interesting game play for sure, trying to be out of a cruiser's broad side arc as its weapons cooldown to fire again. hitting abruptly like that, a cruiser with 3 forward arrays could probably knock down a shield facing, and even use torps of all things! this sounds better and better actually.

the beam 1 shot per cycle though, that should only be reserved for forward arc federation cruisers, excluding the excelsior. the current beam arrays in game are accurate for the small beam banks you would find on an array-less ship like all non federation and all old ships that had ball turrets till their last appearance in canon. they also fit what the short aft arrays on fed ships should fire like.

to give the galaxy class a nod, its aft beams should be fired from the back of the main saucer arrays, an over the shoulder attack but only wile its not separated. making it the only ship that has these 1 shot per cycle beams fore and aft. its so canon it hurts. there would be no reason to fire those tiny arrays if the object was in the arc of the main arrays, thats why you never saw them used. the only exception was BoBW when they were trying to hit the cube with several different modulation beams at once to try to get some effect on the thing.


here we have something i like to call balanced but different. you have escorts that have the highest DPS and high spike cannons, with low damage mitigation. you have battle cruisers that have high DPS and high spike cannons, with high damage mitigation, but much lower maneuverability to make it harder to use those weapons. and you have federation cruisers with low DPS but high spikeing forward beams, with high damage mitigation but absolutely dreadful turn rate.

it all balances out as far as damage dealing goes. with that highest spike potential beam arrays have, the poor turn rate will finally be appropriate on fed cruisers. escorts and battle cruisers that already can use DHCs cant use these 1 shot per cycle beams, they are stuck with the tiny array version fore and aft. the only acceptation should be the akira and the nebula, using the heavy beams fore.


fed cruisers would almost have to use torps to get decent damage dealing, the beams hiting harder then DHCs, but half as often will open holes. but all that downtime in between will be killer for making it stick. suddenly the regent would be an amazing ship with this change come to think of it.
gateway links-->Norvo Tigan, Telis Latto Ruwon, Sochie Heim, Solana Soleus

Last edited by dontdrunkimshoot; 02-07-2013 at 12:12 PM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,400
# 184
02-07-2013, 12:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
a mkX beam array deals 200 damage a shot with 4 shots at 160 DPS, make that all from 1 hit and it will deal 800, and then have a lengthy cooldown. at the same time a mkX DHC fires 2 shots at 348 damage each with 696 total, but has 232 DPS.

that would create more interesting game play for sure, trying to be out of a cruiser's broad side arc as its weapons cooldown to fire again. hitting abruptly like that, a cruiser with 3 forward arrays could probably knock down a shield facing, and even use torps of all things! this sounds better and better actually.

This sounds terribly unbalanced.



You want to more than triple the base damage per volley of a DBB and let that loose with a BO every 15s with a 250 degree arc?




Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
the beam 1 shot per cycle though, that should only be reserved for forward arc federation cruisers, excluding the excelsior.
This would restrict these massively burst capable weapons to the tankiest ships

I'm sorry but I don't think this idea "balances" damage at all.

Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 141
# 185
02-07-2013, 01:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ussultimatum View Post
This sounds terribly unbalanced.



You want to more than triple the base damage per volley of a DBB and let that loose with a BO every 15s with a 250 degree arc?
BO should probably so the same damage with any type of beam, DBB, array, or the 'heavy array' that has been suggested.

The idea with BO is that it does more damage by momentarily channeling all of a ships power through a weapon. So it kind of doesn't make sense that dual beams do more with it, given that they are just splitting up that power, not adding more to it.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 597
# 186
02-07-2013, 02:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by shimmerless View Post
In the days before lockboxes and fleet vessels you might have had half a point. However, any niche that Fed snoozers may have once fit has been completely eroded by cross-faction/fleet ships that outclass them both at healing/protection (Wells, Recluse) and sustained damage or maneuverability (pretty much every Klinkydink snoozer). Even on a stat-by-stat basis Fed snoozers are terribly outclassed: the Fl. Vorcha has a frankly ridonkulous 1.1 mod to the Fleet Stargazer's .94, for instance).

Some moar evidence that considering Cryptic calls themselves DS9 fanboys, they must've been watching a different show to the one I did (pay close attention to each appearance of a Galaxy class in the clip):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bWi-pJLO2m4
love that freaking link ty shim.


btw wish my sb was like ds9 and blow up everything
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,793
# 187
02-07-2013, 02:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ussultimatum View Post
This sounds terribly unbalanced.



You want to more than triple the base damage per volley of a DBB and let that loose with a BO every 15s with a 250 degree arc?


This would restrict these massively burst capable weapons to the tankiest ships

I'm sorry but I don't think this idea "balances" damage at all.
never mentioned DBB, i wouldn't change them. actually im suggesting they should exactly quadruple the damage of each beam array shot. but after it fires, count to 4, it will take that long before it fires again, so it actually has the same DPS it always had.

they could keep the BO damage from these beams at the normal beam array level, because these are just normal beams with a different functionality when on the forward arc of fed cruisers. or not, let BO work best from big long federation beam arrays, as it should.

shield facing penetration, what a concept. sure, those beams could cut a good hole in one with 3 or 4 good hits, but then theres a huge delay of 4 seconds before it can fire again. thats more then enough time for auto distribute to completely undo the facing drop. remember, cruiser turn rate is horrible, thats why beams have the arc they have. and overall the DPS is still terrible. but like i had mentioned, it would make torpedoes on cruisers an ideal choice, if you could time it well. a few of these beam shots against TT wouldn't even faze it, just look at the DPS TT can deal with from full on CRF DHCs alpha.


KDF cruisers would still be MUCH more deadly over all. but fed cruisers should not be such utter fail boats when used tactically, more then in a healer role, the same as KDF cruisers are dynamic now. they should not be dangerous in identical ways though of course. this all fits well with observed canon too, something that should have been adhered to more then the retarded warrior, healer, mage triumvirate, applied to fricking starships.
gateway links-->Norvo Tigan, Telis Latto Ruwon, Sochie Heim, Solana Soleus
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,481
# 188
02-07-2013, 04:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
never mentioned DBB, i wouldn't change them. actually im suggesting they should exactly quadruple the damage of each beam array shot. but after it fires, count to 4, it will take that long before it fires again, so it actually has the same DPS it always had.

they could keep the BO damage from these beams at the normal beam array level, because these are just normal beams with a different functionality when on the forward arc of fed cruisers. or not, let BO work best from big long federation beam arrays, as it should.

shield facing penetration, what a concept. sure, those beams could cut a good hole in one with 3 or 4 good hits, but then theres a huge delay of 4 seconds before it can fire again. thats more then enough time for auto distribute to completely undo the facing drop. remember, cruiser turn rate is horrible, thats why beams have the arc they have. and overall the DPS is still terrible. but like i had mentioned, it would make torpedoes on cruisers an ideal choice, if you could time it well. a few of these beam shots against TT wouldn't even faze it, just look at the DPS TT can deal with from full on CRF DHCs alpha.


KDF cruisers would still be MUCH more deadly over all. but fed cruisers should not be such utter fail boats when used tactically, more then in a healer role, the same as KDF cruisers are dynamic now. they should not be dangerous in identical ways though of course. this all fits well with observed canon too, something that should have been adhered to more then the retarded warrior, healer, mage triumvirate, applied to fricking starships.
Up to 40 Beam Arrays w/4x the spike damage @ 1 time on a target would be OP and way over the top. A team could hit 3 different targets full alpha in under 15 seconds. Keep in mind Beam Arrays have an Arc and distance and travel time advantage over cannons. I don't see the need for this extreme type of change.

This just comes across as Feds wanting ships that are the best in all cases. They already have better Escorts, Scis, Support Cruisers (based on the ships they're supporting). They have a lot of Boff variety to choose from.

KDF have exploitable drain pets so carrier advantage (though feds have every ship type that can deploy pets a couple on KDF side), the Vet ship, and BCs. That's it. Raiders have been left behind for a long time now. Destroyers are nice pug ships, but w/o a cloak don't work for hit and run play and for Fed style fights they don't have the damage nor turn capabilities of high end escorts.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,400
# 189
02-07-2013, 05:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by inktomi19 View Post
BO should probably so the same damage with any type of beam, DBB, array, or the 'heavy array' that has been suggested.
I think at that point there is no reason for DBB to exist.

It's better as it is.


Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
never mentioned DBB,

Sorry I was extrapolating.

You mentioned increasing the DPV of the BA to 800.

DBB MK X Base Dam = 260 x3 = 780, which is where I got my "more than triple" number from.

I brought DBB into it, because we all have experience with the DPV of DBBs and the kind of BOs they can generate. So I used it for illustration.



Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
they could keep the BO damage from these beams at the normal beam array level

I really think that the idea is just too far fetched.

An entire class of weapons, that can only be used on some cruiser of one faction only, that have a special interaction with current BO.

I'd rather they just adjust standard BAs if the devs feel they are underperforming - I also think its more realistic that this would happen.

Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 141
# 190
02-07-2013, 07:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ussultimatum View Post
I think at that point there is no reason for DBB to exist.

It's better as it is.
On an escort, maybe. They used to be okay on cruisers if the turn rate was high enough.

It says a lot that the only useful type of beam weapon now is a DBB paired with BO. Arrays used to be good for pressure DPS, but pressure DPS is pretty irrelevant now.

*Something* needs to be done with beam arrays. I kinda think that if they didn't suffer so much drain, that might do it. If they had a BOff power to buff their spike damage, that might do it too (BO is pretty weak with an array, especially considering how much it's drain reduces the rest of the damage).
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