Commander
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 405
Sorry for the long post.

This isn't a post about nerfing anyone or buffing my ship or anything like that, just to get it out of the way. This is about the BOFF human trait Leadership. Now we all know it was broken and it has recently been fixed. However I don't know if it is working as intended right now because I feel it may be a bit out of whack.

My friend and I dual quite often to either test new ships, builds, abilities, etc. I usually have a cruiser and he?s in an escort. Here is the scoop of the latest fight since Leadership was fixed.

I have a set of fleet phasers, and a set of acc x3 phasers that I change between, usually six with a couple of torps front and back. I ran with both the fleet Excelsior cruiser, and the assault cruiser refit, both set up for just pure tanking.

Both of us are running an all human crew

Me - Engineer captain

The majority of my build is as follows:

Com Eng EPtS1, EPtW2, AtSIF2, AtSIF3
Lt Eng -EptS1, RSP1
Lt Science (or universal for Assault cruiser) - HE1, TSS2
Lt Com Tac, -TT1, BO2, HY3

Doffs make Tactical team CD to 15 seconds so no need for second tac team. Usually put torp spread of BFAW 1 or something.

Now, my friend normally just ran the fleet defiant as a tac captain running a typical cannon rapid fire 2 build with omega 3, but as far as his engineer boffs he had

Lt Eng- EPtS1, RSP1
Or
Lt Eng- EPtS1, EPtS2

This fight would usually last about 5 - 10 minutes with me being able to out tank his damage and eventually killing him. So he bought a Patrol Escort and went for doubling up attack pattern omega, with only 2 cannon rapid fire 1's.

Now he runs
Lt Eng - EPtS1, RSP1
Ens Eng - EPtS1

Now it is a completely different fight. The fight will go on for about 5 minutes, and he gets me down to about 50% hull, but RSP or Miracle worker is usually up by then and the fight starts all over again. However I can't get his shields to drop. They are completely red most of the time, but they won't go down. If I manage to finally get a half second when they are, his leadership stacking completely negates any and all damage I do. Bleed through damage is healed the second it's applied.

After 30 minutes of fighting, we both just called it a draw. Looking at the scores at the end of our run is where something seemed off.

After 30 minutes, we both had done (roughly) -
Damage - Him = 1,770,000
Damage - Me = 1,410,000
Healed - Him = 759,000
Healed - Me = 2,000,000

We had relatively close damage, but I massively outhealed him, which is expected, but during the fight, his hull never took any damage. Even when I managed to get his shields down for a second, he never went below 90%. 90% to 100% took roughly 2 seconds.
Now, your natural hull regen doesn't count towards your healing numbers, so this tells me that something is very wrong here.

Again, this is not crying because X ship is under/overpowered, nerf/buff this or that. I'm not looking for ship build critiques or play style advice.

All I am wondering is if this sounds right. Should Leadership be this powerful? I mean it isn't overpowered really, but it does completely nullify any bleedthrough damage with beams, which does kind of change the nature of ship to ship fighting I think. I can't think of any reason (for me) to play in a cruiser anymore since my plan was to go for survivability first, and the damage. Now it seems I can be just as effective a tank WITH DPS to boot in a patrol escort.

Has anyone else noticed a huge difference since they fixed BOFF Leadership?

Last edited by cha0s1428; 02-08-2013 at 03:03 PM.
Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 255
# 2
02-07-2013, 10:39 PM
You won't be anywhere as near effective tanking in an escort without ENG abilities. You'll just die alot and be worthless to the group waiting on respawn timers.

Leadership isn't the problem here, especially when it is entirely dependent on your crew not being dead. It often is in STFs so you must sacrifice gear for crew resist gear if you want to take advantage of the leadership perk. Even when it's in full force it's just 3% per tick and frankly I damn well welcome it for PvE because I have spent many of STFs running under 50% HP because my heals suck and no one wants to play as a team and save their heals for themselves(not everyone but might as well be "everyone")

I'm not really sure if there is a problem. You had a draw. If that's not balanced gameplay then I don't know what is. Remember that this was a 1v1 match up. When things are balanced, fatigue decides the victor. But it does pose problems for fed vs kdf, and I have already offered a fix for that. It's called giving klingons a version of leadership where you inspire your crew to work harder for honor and victory, which roughly translates to increased DPS. An increase that's just as considerable as 5 human BOs stacking leadership.

But instead of that awesome sauce we all know what's just going to happen. Cryptic will nerf leadership after taking 3 years to fix it and ruin everything. Just so they don't have to give the klingons something nice to counter. Then leadership will be back to being worthless as **** because this PvE game apparently has to revolve around PvP gameplay for some damn reason. If I wanted to play PvP seriously I would load up a FPS. I damn sure wouldn't expect it to dictate how STO unfolds.
Commander
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 405
# 3
02-07-2013, 11:24 PM
While I agree with you to an extent, it just seems a bit crazy that after 30 mins, he had healed over 1 million damage JUST from leadership, and that it completely nullifies beam bleedthrough from 6 weapons, even 8 when I tried it for testing sake. That doesn't seem a bit much to you?
Commander
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 405
# 4 Stacking Leadership Gone Wild
02-08-2013, 04:52 AM
edit for it being moved

Last edited by cha0s1428; 02-08-2013 at 02:44 PM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 148
# 5
02-08-2013, 06:58 AM
Hes flying an escort, his heals SHOULD be less seeing as an escort has less hull.

Amazingly you actually healed 1 million more damage than you took, so I actually doubt these numbers are in any way accurate, sorry.

As far as a difference... hell yeah! I can usually tank pretty well in just about any ship, but I have been doing it much better lately. I think I have blown up maybe twice since I switched over to a mostly human boff layout.
InGame - @Darth_Tauri
Joined - 9/2011
"You Best Make Peace With Your Dear & Fluffy Lord" - Malcolm Reynolds
Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 255
# 6
02-08-2013, 09:14 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cha0s1428 View Post
Again, this is not crying because X ship is under/overpowered, nerf/buff this or that. I'm not looking for ship build critiques or play style advice.
Well it's suspiciously starting to sound exactly like that if you felt the need to post about it twice. Again:

You won't be anywhere as near effective tanking in an escort without ENG abilities. You'll just die alot and be worthless to the group waiting on respawn timers. Go ahead and try it. See how long you last in a defiant with less hull and no heals against a tac cube that has full attention on you. Leadership ain't so great that you survive a full on tac cube assault.

Leadership isn't the problem here, especially when it is entirely dependent on your crew not being dead. It often is in STFs so you must sacrifice gear for crew resist gear if you want to take advantage of the leadership perk. Even when it's in full force it's just 3% per tick and frankly I welcome it for PvE because I have spent many STFs running under 50% HP because my heals suck and no one wants to play as a team and save their heals for themselves(not everyone but might as well be "everyone")

I'm not really sure if there is a problem. You had a draw. If that's not balanced gameplay then I don't know what is. Remember that this was a 1v1 match up. When things are balanced, fatigue decides the victor. But it does pose problems for fed vs kdf. Either give KDF hull regen too or something to counter it. Or apparently it's not a major problem since the KDF has not been up in arms over it yet. I think they have one discussion topic about it. This is probably because they enjoy the trait working now on their fed characters, and have seen no game breaking effects in fed vs kdf combat.



Again:

Quote:
I'm not really sure if there is a problem. You had a draw. If that's not balanced gameplay then I don't know what is.
So, you can no longer kill him and now you have a problem with leadership trait. 1v1 combat should be draws. That's a sign of balance. Groups is where it's at in that case, where more than one person focuses fire on a ship. You know, kind of like "real life" Star Trek where the fleet admiral orders the fleet to all fire in the same spot.

What you are sorta proposing is that escorts gets their DPS because they sacrifice survival, and since leadership now works that that isn't fair. Well, it's still just 3% ticks at it's very best. Apparently your friend doesn't pack enough DPS to kill you but you could kill him. Now you can't kill him. SO now there's a problem to be had, of course.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,764
# 7
02-08-2013, 09:34 AM
Thanks to Leadership working I CAN choose to wear other gear in STFs now, so NO THANK YOU.

Especially when in pvp thanks to all the q torps flying around my 50 crew are really really dead all the time. My Admiral just flies the FTER solo like yesterday's...

...yesterdays's...

...hmm I'm forgetting something here. :p
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lt. Comm. Pion
What should I wish upon the endless universe;
To be able to smile and forgive everything;
That's right, if we light up the dream in our hearts without averting our eyes;
We should be able to walk whatever tomorrow comes...

I am V. Adm. Kha Yuung, and I approve of this message.
Commander
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 405
# 8
02-08-2013, 02:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by romuzarii View Post
So, you can no longer kill him and now you have a problem with leadership trait. 1v1 combat should be draws. That's a sign of balance. Groups is where it's at in that case, where more than one person focuses fire on a ship. You know, kind of like "real life" Star Trek where the fleet admiral orders the fleet to all fire in the same spot.

What you are sorta proposing is that escorts gets their DPS because they sacrifice survival, and since leadership now works that that isn't fair. Well, it's still just 3% ticks at it's very best. Apparently your friend doesn't pack enough DPS to kill you but you could kill him. Now you can't kill him. SO now there's a problem to be had, of course.
I don't necessarily have a problem with it, just wondering if was intended to replace tanking abilities. If it is, then fine, if not, then I was pointing it out. He has plenty of DPS, I just have a tanking build set up entirely to heal myself and nobody else.
Commander
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 405
# 9
02-08-2013, 02:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kevaldt View Post
Hes flying an escort, his heals SHOULD be less seeing as an escort has less hull.

Amazingly you actually healed 1 million more damage than you took, so I actually doubt these numbers are in any way accurate, sorry.

As far as a difference... hell yeah! I can usually tank pretty well in just about any ship, but I have been doing it much better lately. I think I have blown up maybe twice since I switched over to a mostly human boff layout.
Cripes yer right about the healing numbers, thank you, that should just be 2, not 2.7. Uhg typo. It is usually the case that I heal more damage than I receive though. I suspect that there is some damage that is being done that isn't counted towards the score. I think it may be the borg cutting beam, or that omega rep kinetic damage thing.

Last edited by cha0s1428; 02-08-2013 at 03:05 PM.
Ensign
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 18
# 10
02-14-2013, 09:58 PM
It looks like BOFF's with leadership are providing (in addition to whatever other bonus they provide) a +40 bonus to hull healing.

For comparison, a Mk XII common level SIF console only provides +17.5 Hull Repair skill, which is about 12.6 hull repair (if it also works on all other hull healing skills). The second tier Omega reputation ability adds +10. So one human BOFF is about as good as 2 consoles, plus the Omega ability. And you can equip 4 more of them. They stack without diminishing returns.

While the rate of hull repair drops significantly during combat, getting +200 hull repair for using 5 BOFF's with leadership seems rather out of proportion to other sources of hull healing.
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