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# 1 Spike vs Pressure
02-08-2013, 08:47 AM
So let's have a new thread.

Pressure damage is dead.


Anyone disagreeing?
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# 2
02-08-2013, 08:55 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mancom View Post
Pressure damage is dead.
It'd be helpful if you re-stated what you believe the primary cause(s) to be. I believe it's Resists + Regen that you have a concern with, but I think you can state your case more clearly than I can regurgitate it.

And I'll re-state the wrench that I'll throw in the gears ... massive alpha strikes and SNB coordination are very real concerns on the opposite end of this spectrum. If we toned down Resists and Regen, it would only serve to amplify these tactics and further destabilize many PvP encounters.
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# 3
02-08-2013, 09:02 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mancom View Post
So let's have a new thread.

Pressure damage is dead.


Anyone disagreeing?
Dead as a door nail. Any competent team can simply cross heal nearly any amount of pressure damage. Long ago people complained it was cruisers online, now it's escorts online, with science only used or SNB.

Beam arrays might as well be dead weight.
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# 4
02-08-2013, 09:04 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by borticuscryptic View Post
And I'll re-state the wrench that I'll throw in the gears ... massive alpha strikes and SNB coordination are very real concerns on the opposite end of this spectrum. If we toned down Resists and Regen, it would only serve to amplify these tactics and further destabilize many PvP encounters.
The problem is: coordinated SNB+Alpha attacks are basically the ONLY successful way of attacking these days (well, massive carrier spam is another way, but let's discard that ugly option).

Suggesting that the situation gets worse when you supposedly shift the game more towards the currently ONLY viable option doesn't make much sense.

It used to be possible to send a single dps cruiser (or two semi-dps ships) after a healer or other target and eventually force that target to spend heals on itself to disrupt team healing and open up opportunities. With the current levels of non-boff resists and regen one can barely tickle a player let alone actually pressure him.


And here a copy of my text in the other thread:

Quote:
Originally Posted by mancom View Post
Boffs / Gear /Reputation: Varous things

Issue: There are many shipclass-agnostic things that provide a huge amount of innate resists and regeneration (both hull and shields) to any ship hat equips them which completely negate pressure damage and lead to a situation where the only kills in a premade vs premade situation are super spike kills from 100% to 0% health that happen with tons of tac buffs and multiple subnukes in a timeframe of just a couple of seconds. This invalidates any damage-dealing builds that are not based on SNB or massive spike damage.
Quote:
Originally Posted by borticuscryptic View Post
This sounds like a complaint that is exclusive to 1v1 scenarios, and PvP is not and cannot be effectively balanced around duels when we have 5v5 (or more) arenas as the standard match. If you are in a team environment, the combined damage of coordination is likely to outstrip an enemy's ability to counter.

Teamwork is OP, but we have to assume that everybody uses it.
Lecturing me about the powers of teamwork... yeah, that inspires confidence in your knowledge of the game.

No, this complaint is not rooted in 1v1 experiences. On the contrary, it comes from 5v5 premade matches.


A full team has a maximum sustained raw damage output against a single target of maybe 20k dps if we're generous. Now add in resists only from EPtS1 (18%), shield power (let's assume effective 80 power after EPtS), elite fleet shields (10*2% + 15% from resa/b) and for fun throw the player a single ES2 with 30% resist, then multiply all these together and you arrive at 70% resist - from stuff that ANY ship can carry + a single ES2 (it's 56% without the ES2; and all ships can carry higher levels of EPtS than just lvl 1 if they like).

Okay, back to the damage. 20k against a single target? 5% = 1k is bleedthrough (assuming resilient shields) and gets soaked up by leadership and the borg hull heal. 5% is simply absorbed by the resilient shield. 90% is shield damage. Now factor in resists. This leaves us with 5.4k dps. From a couple of short tests it looks like a sci ship with T4 passives will have something like 1k+ innate shield regen. EPtS is another 180+ healing per second. A TSS2 with medium aux is something like 300 hps (assuming a 45s cooldown; and we aren't even factoring in the additional resist), the ES2 gives another 400 hps (with a 45s cooldown). So we have easily something like 1.9k shield hps from the ship. (If we add heals among all the ships, we can get above the 5.4k dps, so focus fire without Alpha/SNB support won't get us anywhere.)

Let's assume we want to do something other than alpha/snb kills with a window of opportunity of just 2-3 seconds. Like pressure damage to soften up a target for a target switch of the remaining dps. Take 2 players firing at the target. We have 5.4k total, so two players will do ~2.1k dps. Subtract the 1.9k hps and we have 200 dps. A ship has something like 40k to 60k+ total shield capacity. So it takes us more than 200 seconds to wear down the shields of a single ship with TWO ships attacking a single ship that receives only an ES2. But then there is that teamwork you mentioned, which means the ship will certainly receive an additional heal or two in 200 seconds and we can't do anything to soften up the target. If we just send a single dps to pressure a healer (possibly with RSF+MW), nothing will happen at all. This used to be different.
(And don't forget: achieving this healing is significantly easier to do than dealing the assumed 20k dps.)

You may have noticed that there weren't any significant assumptions about the ship being of a specific class or captain type. I guess innate regen will vary a little, but for example escorts will receive better defense scores to compensate that. So the numbers are more or less shipclass-agnostic.


Now maybe you disagree with my figures. Let's hear yours. What are the dps/hps figures around which you balance the abilities?

Oh, and just for fun: What is the average resist that you suspect is currently the norm in somewhat organised pvp matches?
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# 5
02-08-2013, 09:09 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ocp001 View Post
Any competent team can simply cross heal nearly any amount of pressure damage.
Using which combination of abilities + gear? What is the opportunity cost (if any) associated with ensuring that you (and your team) are capable of being able to shrug off all but he mightiest of alpha strikes? Is it easy enough that your average Newbie or PUG can manage, or solely the purview of Premades and Veterans?

Seriously - let's steer away from the hyperbole and blanket statements, and dig into the guts. I know this community can do so.
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# 6
02-08-2013, 09:11 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by borticuscryptic View Post
What is the opportunity cost (if any) associated with ensuring that you (and your team) are capable of being able to shrug off all but he mightiest of alpha strikes?
You are talking about ALPHA strikes.

We are talking about PRESSURE damage.

The opportunity cost of shrugging off pressure damage is essentially zero. Elite fleet shields, EPtS (which you would carry anyway), Human boffs, t4 shield passives and TT to use all four shield facing (an ability that you also carry in almost all builds).


Quote:
Originally Posted by borticuscryptic View Post
Seriously - let's steer away from the hyperbole and blanket statements, and dig into the guts. I know this community can do so.
This is downright insulting after I had already posted a lengthy treatise in the other thread (and reposted here) which included numbers and abilities and everything.
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Last edited by mancom; 02-08-2013 at 09:14 AM.
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# 7
02-08-2013, 09:16 AM
Unfortuantly i have to agree. Pressure damage is gone due to three factors:

1. Elite fleet shield providing far too much resistance making so teams who cant do enough spike damage to one ship, aka instakill them in one strafe round, is immortal and very hard to take down. These shields i daresay, give escorts the greatest advantage, giving them ability besides speed tanking the ability to also shield tank proper.

2. Ships like the JHAS being the superior damage dealer, making most escorts obsolete in the fact they can deal the most spike damage, with high survivability. The JHAS is too the only ship which can take out my Wells with 17k shields and 39k hull in one volley if the player is properly buffed. Dont get me started with how poorly crusiers and sci ships perform in the damage department. This fact is further impacted by the third factor -->

3. Tactical consoles does not have a stacking bonus like engineering and science has, which im still curios over why, and severly limits options and making damage far too powerful. What i too find curios is too why certain tactical space boff and captain abilties effect science skills as well.


In essence something needs to be looked into at the tactical department, and if I may be so bold to say, the JHAS. I feel this game and the developers are too biased towards tactical, as this particular field affects abilties outtside their intended field and the fact the consoles does not stack. Borticus, i hope you have a VERY good explanation.
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# 8
02-08-2013, 09:19 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mancom View Post
You are talking about ALPHA strikes.

We are talking about PRESSURE damage.
... That's exactly what I was talking about, too ...

Quote:
This is downright insulting after I had already posted a lengthy treatise in the other thread (and reposted here) which included numbers and abilities and everything.
I thought it would've been obvious that my statement wasn't aimed at you.
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# 9
02-08-2013, 09:20 AM
Probably, I haven't run Tac Fleet Torkaht pressure DPS build in awhile. (I used CVS and APO rather than CRF2).

I know I had a solid high pressure damage build w/Tac Commander and DHCs and a Sci captain. It's much less effective now. I haven't tweeked it yet to a more spike oriented build.

The other issue is being able to spike defense for ships w/hangars and certain Flight Deck Doffs in recall mode. This and a movement immunity ability that's chainable will make pressure less effective just based on the number of misses.

I'm not sure how BA would do w/FAW w/CritH&D procs after they're fixed. W/o the procs they're lacking for certain.

Also, there are the various console abilities/Doffs (Fortress/JamAPconsole/Aux2batt/SNB Doffs etc that can scew things).
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# 10
02-08-2013, 09:22 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by borticuscryptic View Post
I
And I'll re-state the wrench that I'll throw in the gears ... massive alpha strikes and SNB coordination are very real concerns on the opposite end of this spectrum. If we toned down Resists and Regen, it would only serve to amplify these tactics and further destabilize many PvP encounters.

Right now, in premade v premade set ups, massive alpha strikes and coordinated SNBs are the only way to get reliable kills.

On top of this you can't even wear down the opponent, due to fleet shields. So shooting them over any period of time basically hinders your actual goal of wanting to kill them.

You either coordinate a massive alpha + SNB strike with DHCs or your target will literally shrug off what you toss at them.

CRF + DHCs + APO on their own might as well be throwing wet noodles at a good player.

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