Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,066
# 31
02-08-2013, 11:54 AM
The thing is even a semi-decent elite STF build will survive in pvp, a decent elite STF build is equivalent to a semi-decent pvp build... just something for Sophie to bare in mind...

As for beam arrays and other alike weaponry... all my ships can hold off a good beamboat with EPtS1 (from 25 base power!), TSS2 (Not essential) and manual shield distribution, I then use Aux2SIF to protect my paintwork ... but back to seriousness, SERIOUSLY?!?!? Even a semi-decent PvE player has 99% uptime on EPtS!

1 skill holds off 90% of beam damage from 6 beams fired at full power and EPtW overcap thus rendering beam arrays useless for any pvp engagement but you cant change the ability without everyone dying even faster to DHCs.

I'd say there is something majorly wrong...
Rihannsu
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,706
# 32
02-08-2013, 12:13 PM
don't really feel that our point is coming across.

so let's try: Feddie eng/cruiser tries to kill something in PvE. 6 beams 2 torps mostly heal build so no EptS3 but ES3 and aux2sif 2 instead, .....just below hilbert guid layout:

Broadsiding the ISE gate makes....not much, every now and then you turn around and your torps do actual damage since gates have no shields, and 2 of the three escorts around you went afk so you have enough time to turn.

Now enter pvp.

a tac in a b'rel: TT1 EptS1, and either rep or assimilated set. B'rel has a horrible build, and the hull of a shuttle.

The cruiser will not manage to do enough damage, since even with a full crit boradside F@W1 at a single target, the base resists and the random uberheal proc that is going to happen sooner or later will result in no chance at a kill. If the horribad tac gets lucky he kills somthing.

Enter teamplay. NO matter how many TS1 spreads, or F@W beamboat broadsides you have. Even against a full bop team with just HE1 TT1 and EPTS1, the bop pilots won't break a sweat. Rebalance shields and sooner or later the heal proc will undo everything that the cruisers did.

Ideally, it would be the counterplay of an engineer that enables him to stay in game long enough, to make his low damage over time matter. Yet, the eng has to counter play alright to stay alive, but his targets cannot be killed with zero counterplay on their part.

The eng rolls a 100 takes 25 % hull, through shields.
Tac is trying to figure out what dice are: rolls a 3.

Feddie rolls another 100 takes down additional 30% hull and some shields,
Tac doesn't do squat since power tray magically got scrambled.

Feddie roles another 100 add another 35% hull is gone and shields at zero. Getting high ideas of a score...i can smell it.
Tac in brel manages to turn around, rolls another 3, but happily has an assimilated proc , which get him back to 100% hull and shields.

Eng rolls another 100 it starts again. Tac rolls a 88, eng dead.
Rinse and repeat.

TT1 being to strong, beam energy drain to strong, and the amounts of proc based heals being too high.

You don't need to counter pressure damage, a proc will do it for you. That is the problem.
Joined 06.10
PvP 2010-2011
PvP 2012-2013

Last edited by havam; 02-08-2013 at 12:41 PM.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 246
# 33
02-08-2013, 12:30 PM
Sustained dps, a way for opponents to use heals that arn't ment to kill their team anyhow and thus have an effect it wears down the heals on the opponents.

Burst/alpha dps
, a way for "Escorts" to "get" kills, this might include multiple subnukes/attack patterns and other offensive buffs.

Current meta in the game for premade make sustained dps not even worth playing.
Noone.
Career Officer
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 693
# 34
02-08-2013, 12:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sophlogimo View Post
"Moving towards" in the "if we extrapolate the current development linearly, we might end up there", but certainly not in the "that's how it already is" way.
No. "Moving towards" in the "everyone will eventually have T4 passives and access to elite fleet shields" way. Things will get progressively worse as more and more players/characters gain access to these things.

So far, Elite Shields are not widespread and there are probably still lots of characters without T4 rep out there (at least I still have many of them). Look at how often you see the transphasic torp combo or other "build of the month" things - even the players who are sometimes belittled as "PVErs" aren't stupid, they notice trends and jump on the bandwagon and these healing/resist passives/gear will see (more) widespread use eventually.
http://hilbertguide.com
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,828
# 35
02-08-2013, 12:41 PM
This thread is funny being my comments in other thread about the b'rel when you try to go pressure you stay decloaked pretty much with no shields while you have people taking advantage of the negative parts of how the ship works so you are having to go out of your way to use all these tactics and then someone just easily can kill you with a HY3 or whatever and yer dead without any tactics.

Of course though I don't expect the b'rel to get looked into because its not federation faction.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 5,687
# 36
02-08-2013, 12:42 PM
I've suggested this before...

But I really think what's needed is a dedicated tanking stat.

Effectively:

Puts a cap on how much damage, as a percentage of your total hull, you can receive in a single hit. Also has a chance of nullifying crits.

Put this stat on Tac, Sci, and Eng consoles targeted at tanking and PvP. Give each ship type a modifier.

10 consoles equipped means that NO ATTACK can reduce your hull by more than 10% in one hit in a cruiser. Caps out at 20% hull per hit in a sci ship. Caps out at 30% hull per hit in an escort. Using these consoles does provide less gains to other stats.

Then what you need are weapons modifiers or BO abilities that disrupt healing abilities, BOTH EFFECTIVENESS AND AVAILABILITY. A stacking debuff that reduces received healing by 10% and has a chance to disable healing abilities. Something like that.

Just my $.02 on it.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,015
# 37
02-08-2013, 12:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by borticuscryptic View Post
It'd be helpful if you re-stated what you believe the primary cause(s) to be. I believe it's Resists + Regen that you have a concern with, but I think you can state your case more clearly than I can regurgitate it.

And I'll re-state the wrench that I'll throw in the gears ... massive alpha strikes and SNB coordination are very real concerns on the opposite end of this spectrum. If we toned down Resists and Regen, it would only serve to amplify these tactics and further destabilize many PvP encounters.
If I may be so bold, remove the part in red and the part in yellow will be true. But SNB is unconcerned with the level of resists and regen. It is a magic spell that takes a heavily armored knight on horseback and renders him a naked footman. Toning down the armor and horse will not make the magic spell more effective. It might, however, reduce reliance on it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by havam View Post
You don't need to counter pressure damage, a proc will do it for you. That is the problem.
This is big. Currently the only helpful proc for spike is Reactive Deflection, so yay for 1% of alphas being survived. From the other direction, yes, please, put a single plasma dot on me from your embassy console. I know you think every little bit helps, and keep thinking that because your little plasma fire just triggered a heal that was much bigger.

There's another big issue. Holds have a limited duration, and can be countered. This favors pairing spikes with holds.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 13,330
# 38
02-08-2013, 12:58 PM
I've written, rewritten, and deleted this post a half-dozen times so far. Going about it from different angles, there was always a comment element - regardless of what else I thought to say - so I'm just going to say that part and skip the rest.

Premades vs. Premades.
PUGmades vs. PUGmades.
PUG vs. PUG.

Apples, Oranges, and Bananas.
Vice Admiral Geist, Klingon Science Officer
I.S.S. Arcadia, Mirror Universe Heavy Cruiser Retrofit
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 246
# 39
02-08-2013, 01:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by virusdancer View Post
I've written, rewritten, and deleted this post a half-dozen times so far. Going about it from different angles, there was always a comment element - regardless of what else I thought to say - so I'm just going to say that part and skip the rest.

Premades vs. Premades.
PUGmades vs. PUGmades.
PUG vs. PUG.

Apples, Oranges, and Bananas.
Well yes, worst pugs have most impact on their games because they die too fast and have no resists, pugmades vs pugmades, its basicly random teams might be unbalanced team comps due to the way they are made, Premade vs premade the only thing that can be "tested" due to everyone is trying their best.
Noone.
Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 318
# 40
02-08-2013, 01:19 PM
I think the current problem with super tanking is a bit more widespread than just the recent s7 and fleet gear. They make it worse but I think that it would still basically be here as it is now anyway. Coordination and team cross healing is probably a greater impact that anything short of buggy powers such as the old T4 shield heal.

The result is cross healing plus the high end gear thats now available means players are really hard to kill. Response was multiple subnuke/fake alphas. And people are now living through those because if you min max the s6 and s7 content you can. And so PvP has ground itself into the realm of team minmax or die pitifully.


If you try and fix any area of the current pvp meta without changing its corresponding counter the whole thing will basically fly apart. Reduce survivability and multiple subnuke+ alphas will be guaranteed kills. reduce or change how subnukes /max damage works and it goes the other way with no one dieing. To fix pvp will probably require a good deal of Dev "Under review" of several things simultaneously with the intent for them all to be released at nearly the same time and designed to function as a whole. Its my opinion that for pvp to change much from the current super teamwork premade or suck is going to require a large coordinated change to how powers, captain abilities, and some items affect players.

So for that I say asking the devs/pvp community how much they want 5v5 pvp to be about teamwork and team composition. What is the average idea of how PvP "should" work.
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