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Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,541
# 41
02-08-2013, 01:22 PM
i have been harping on this exact issue for weeks. at this moment, the only energy weapon worth fireing is DHCs. against anyone who isn't mostly helpless, the other weapons wont do anything to them. thats because unlike any other weapon, the DHC can deliver damage abruptly enough to remove a shield facing faster then manual distributions can balance away the incoming damage. basically, a soft DHC alpha, say just with a CRF, APA and APO only has to shoot through 1 shield facing, wile DCs, singles, and beam arrays dealing their damage more gradually are shooting against 4 shield faceings at once with basic redistributing. thanks to the high resistance levels, and the per facing regeneration and heals, no non DHC damage can out pace even basic regeneration+EPtS1.

alos, damage focused torps that arent plasma, chrono or trans cant be of use on a ship if they arent pared with a DHC's damage. no other weapon can make a hole for them, and they do next to no damage to shields. torps should deal 75% damage to shields, not 25%. that could make them a more useful tool for the current pressure problems, they can be a new source of vs shield spike.



this is fairly grave a balance situation, all non DHC weapons being worthless in pvp. but if you nerfed DHCs literally nothing would die without a sci captain around, even in unorganized teams. if resistance and regeneration were reduced, DHCs would just be like a knife through butter. in my opinion the healing side of things seems sorta balanced with the kind of damage that comes from DHCs, TT needs to exist because of DHC damage or every good alpha vs an unsupported ship would kill it basically every time. its the survive a DHC alpha button.

you could remove DHCs (or make it so their damage isn't so front loaded and they fire their whole cycle duration), remove TT (or lower all its effects to 5 seconds), nerf ES duration to 15 seconds and give it a RSP like cooldown, and lower resistance levels across the board by 20% and you would have a game nearly without YOYOs, were all there was is pressure damage in various degrees. you would be setting up something SO much easier to balance, were nothing would be marginalized like it is now.


but i don't see that ever happening, even though in the long run that would be for the best. so, your left with weapons like beam arrays, singles and DCs. if front loaded damage is all that maters, they need to join the club.

singles: high end borg NPCs for a wile now have been useing a heavy plasma cannon, basicly a single cannon with a DHC like firing cycle. well, flip a switch and make all single cannons single heavy cannons. currently a single cannon shot looks no different from a turret shot, its not something that can be easily distinguished, which i thought was a design goal. also, increase their dps a bit too.

beam arrays: beams in game do not accurately portray the actual beam array in canon at all, they arent a laser light show fireing up to 8 shots at once at something every second, they are 1 highly charged shot at a time from a ship. so in addition to a change in the way beam arrays work for balance reason, a change should be made on the grounds of canon adherence too. and it should be that they also fire less shots per cycle! ether 2, or just a single shot per cycle, with basically the same DPS they have already. personally i think that kind of effect should be limited to the forward arc of federation cruisers, since they are the ships with the long and powerful arrays, but that might not be programmable. ideally all beam arrays would fire 2 shots per cycle, and fed cruisers would fire 1 shot per cycle from their forward arc.

DBBs: these might be fine really. their reason to live is to deliver beam overload on things like escorts. speaking of beam overload, with beam arrays fireing less per cycle and doing more damage per volley, so DBB arent rendered useless the damage from beam array BO should not change from how it is now.

DCs: oh boy what to do with these, these have always been terrible next to DHCs. i like the idea of single cannons pared up being a DHC, so 2 turrets pared up should be a DC basically. change the energy drain of this weapon to 8, make its fireing arc 90, and don't change its DPS. in a world were pressure doesn't work, these will have the hardest time. thats why they need to be so cheap to run, and hit their target with a wider arc. unlike DHCs, you have to be pointing at the target the whole time to deliver all the damage in any given cycle, you only need to point DHCs at someone for about a second to fire off a cycle worth of damage. even with a buff like this, its debatable if they would be worth using at all.


thank you for acknowledging our concerns bort, we really appreciate this. looking at all these changes i propose, i don't see them really having any effect on how things play out in PVE. it might look a bit different, but function approximately the same as always vs npcs that don't have resistance or healing.
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# 42
02-08-2013, 01:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by redricky View Post
There's another big issue. Holds have a limited duration, and can be countered. This favors pairing spikes with holds.
i dont understand why people think this is a problem, this is a valid tactic, and with speedy targets like escorts being so hard to hit and pin down already, there is more then enough resistance to this tactic already. its current functionality is barley good enough as it is, with the placates breaking holds too. long as pet spam tractors are BS though, but player originated holds are not, thats a TSS or HE or something your giving up for that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by virusdancer View Post
I've written, rewritten, and deleted this post a half-dozen times so far. Going about it from different angles, there was always a comment element - regardless of what else I thought to say - so I'm just going to say that part and skip the rest.

Premades vs. Premades.
PUGmades vs. PUGmades.
PUG vs. PUG.

Apples, Oranges, and Bananas.
even in pug vs pug, non DHC damage is useless. its all actually the same fruit right now
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Join Date: Dec 2012
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# 43
02-08-2013, 01:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
remove TT (or lower all its effects to 5 seconds), nerf ES duration to 15 seconds and give it a RSP like cooldown, and lower resistance levels across the board by 20% and you would have a game nearly without YOYOs, were all there was is pressure damage in various degrees.
In my opinion the issue we have seen recently is not caused so much by bridge officer abilites like ES, but rather by the passives/gear-based things that can be slotted on any ship.

Boff abilities are somewhat balanced by the fact that they require boff stations (and preferably a high level too) and are thus tied to certain ship classes (muddled as they are by all these new ships with "hybrid" boff stations). Of course there are balance issues among these abilities too, but they are not at the core of the recent decline of pressure damage.

In particular, making changes to boff abilities would do nothing to rectify the problem that massive innate healing and resists are available to all ship classes, which inherently favours the ships the can also deal massive damage and punishes those ships whose powerful healing capabilities are being replaced by innate "decentralised" healing on the team.
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Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,015
# 44
02-08-2013, 01:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by virusdancer View Post
I've written, rewritten, and deleted this post a half-dozen times so far. Going about it from different angles, there was always a comment element - regardless of what else I thought to say - so I'm just going to say that part and skip the rest.

Premades vs. Premades.
PUGmades vs. PUGmades.
PUG vs. PUG.

Apples, Oranges, and Bananas.
Agreed, but not on this point. I almost exclusively pug and occasionally opvp pugmade. I'm currently running EPTS1, PH1, HE2, TT1, with no less than 2 passive heal procs and I fear no beam boat, nor any number of pug beam boats. I fear few escort that haven't just flashed red and purple. I will try to parse the amount of healing I'm getting from the heal procs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
i dont understand why people think this is a problem, this is a valid tactic, and with speedy targets like escorts being so hard to hit and pin down already, there is more then enough resistance to this tactic already. its current functionality is barley good enough as it is, with the placates breaking holds too. long as pet spam tractors are BS though, but player originated holds are not, thats a TSS or HE or something your giving up for that.
In this case I didn't mean it was a problem, I just meant it's another thing that favors spike damage. You don't get to TB somebody and wait for beams to burn them down while they're held.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 141
# 45
02-08-2013, 01:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by virusdancer View Post
I've written, rewritten, and deleted this post a half-dozen times so far. Going about it from different angles, there was always a comment element - regardless of what else I thought to say - so I'm just going to say that part and skip the rest.

Premades vs. Premades.
PUGmades vs. PUGmades.
PUG vs. PUG.

Apples, Oranges, and Bananas.
Non-DHC damage isn't up to snuff even in PUGs.

Even without any passives or stacking resists, as long as you have a set of mission-reward shields, two copies of EPtS 1, and one or two 'oh ****' buttons (TSS, RSP, TT), you should not die to beams, even if you keep your shield power at minimum.

You can have a basic, noob PvP setup, and beam arrays will not be a threat to you.

Now if you add in EWP, holds, science powers, SND, etc, then the beams might provide the killing blow. But you can soak up a healing cruiser's broadsides all day in any type of ship, and until someone points DHCs at you you can just keep your shields balanced and run TT or RSP occasionally and be fine.

If you add in all the stacking procs with some gear, then it's even more of a problem.

I'm more okay with team-healing keeping people alive indefinitely. Team play has other counter-moves to deal with it. But as things are, solo players really don't even need to worry about damage that's not coming from cannons.
Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 280
# 46
02-08-2013, 01:52 PM
U cant stop the evolution. I don't see the need for this game to be what used to be. Its totally different game then last year, last two years. Its time to let go, and play with what u got.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skurf View Post
That's what's so great about HoBOs. We are not just 5 or 6 competent players, we are a fleet full of badass mother****ers that will PUNISH THE FEDS until their index fingers are worn to the bone from clicking the respawn button over and over! Q'pla!
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 190
# 47
02-08-2013, 01:54 PM
I don't usually PvP with my eng/cruiser, but in most PvE content I get average DPS of 5-5.5k (standard excelsior). Even with the resists given above, it doesn't seem like 2 cruisers doing this together can just be shrugged off, considering even for an eng there will be spikes. Am I missing something? Or is the concern that heal focused builds can't apply enough pressure when not healing?

This really seems like a discussion about making an eng useful in a fight. How about allowing engineer captains a passive boost to the weapon energy cap (say top out at 175), or allow EPS power transfer to do similar (+xx to all energy levels, +2*xx to energy level max).
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Posts: 6,541
# 48
02-08-2013, 02:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mancom View Post
In my opinion the issue we have seen recently is not caused so much by bridge officer abilites like ES, but rather by the passives/gear-based things that can be slotted on any ship.

Boff abilities are somewhat balanced by the fact that they require boff stations (and preferably a high level too) and are thus tied to certain ship classes (muddled as they are by all these new ships with "hybrid" boff stations). Of course there are balance issues among these abilities too, but they are not at the core of the recent decline of pressure damage.

In particular, making changes to boff abilities would do nothing to rectify the problem that massive innate healing and resists are available to all ship classes, which inherently favours the ships the can also deal massive damage and punishes those ships whose powerful healing capabilities are being replaced by innate "decentralised" healing on the team.
oh i agree that resistance and regeneration are the main problem, what you quoted would all be needed though if DHCs weren't around with their current spike. TT and ES without DHC spike around would make damage as harmless as it is currently. so its a package deal, just doing some of those things piece meal would make things worse. also, i mentioned an across the board reduction of all resistance granting things being reduced by 20%, in what you quoted

Quote:
Originally Posted by redricky View Post
In this case I didn't mean it was a problem, I just meant it's another thing that favors spike damage. You don't get to TB somebody and wait for beams to burn them down while they're held.
ah ok, lately people have been complaining that holds are to powerful and defense is to on and off. personally i think thats a good thing, fast movers with lots of defense are 'tankier' then cruisers anymore, that over the top 'tankyness' needs to be fragile, and turned off once and a wile.

i tried a tractor beam vs 1 lone target with FAW, and it almost looked like it was causing him distress, but not really. just mostly killed half his shields, with no hull damage. if it was CRF DHCs in that same situation, guy would have been dead.
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Last edited by dontdrunkimshoot; 02-08-2013 at 02:11 PM.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 598
# 49
02-08-2013, 02:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mancom View Post
So let's have a new thread.

Pressure damage is dead.


Anyone disagreeing?
I agree with many of the people here who are saying that pressure dmg is problematic--if not useless--in the current environment. I wonder if there is a way to have a rapid fire beam option, though not one that fires at random targets like FAW. This could be some kind of beam upgrade that increases the potential for beams to do spike dmg, incombination with weapon batters, attack patterns, TT, Tac Fleet, and all the other juicy dps boosters.

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# 50
02-08-2013, 02:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by moronwmachinegun View Post
I don't usually PvP with my eng/cruiser, but in most PvE content I get average DPS of 5-5.5k (standard excelsior). Even with the resists given above, it doesn't seem like 2 cruisers doing this together can just be shrugged off, considering even for an eng there will be spikes. Am I missing something? Or is the concern that heal focused builds can't apply enough pressure when not healing?

This really seems like a discussion about making an eng useful in a fight. How about allowing engineer captains a passive boost to the weapon energy cap (say top out at 175), or allow EPS power transfer to do similar (+xx to all energy levels, +2*xx to energy level max).
imagine 50%-75% of that 5k dps your dealing going away from resistance alone, and then whatever is left is out regenerated, it wouldn't even need active heals to counter it. thats pvp right now
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