Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 955
# 141
02-09-2013, 11:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by starscreamfighte View Post
If anything, buff the BoP to match the escorts in stats, and buff the escorts by giving them universal slots. Win-win on both sides.
While I can't speak to the current state of Birds-of-Prey, I can say that Fed escorts do not need buffs (beyond fixing the Fleet Defiant's lack of the Fleet-standard 10% boost to shield modifier). I'd LOVE a universal ensign on my Fleet Defiant, but I can't honestly say it's a necessary buff.

As I said before, this game is too combat-focused without doing anything to enforce the trinity model that the Devs tried to shoehorn the starships into, and that leaves Cruisers and Science ships severely limited compared to Escorts. The game itself, however, is largely balanced around Escorts doing what they're doing now, which means changing them would radically throw off the game's balance.

Cruisers and Science ships need some buffs, either to the ships themselves, their abilities (engineering and science), or the equipment they use.
Ensign
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 14
# 142
02-10-2013, 12:01 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by thratch1 View Post
While I can't speak to the current state of Birds-of-Prey, I can say that Fed escorts do not need buffs (beyond fixing the Fleet Defiant's lack of the Fleet-standard 10% boost to shield modifier). I'd LOVE a universal ensign on my Fleet Defiant, but I can't honestly say it's a necessary buff.

As I said before, this game is too combat-focused without doing anything to enforce the trinity model that the Devs tried to shoehorn the starships into, and that leaves Cruisers and Science ships severely limited compared to Escorts. The game itself, however, is largely balanced around Escorts doing what they're doing now, which means changing them would radically throw off the game's balance.

Cruisers and Science ships need some buffs, either to the ships themselves, their abilities (engineering and science), or the equipment they use.
Ever played in one of those fighters like the Delta Flyer, or whatever those attack fighters are called, the F-22 like fighters that you can buy for like 200 zen or whatever? Think of one of those, only make it bigger, toss on disrupter cannons that do considerable damage on first glance, but have no hp or shields at all worth discussing, and be swatted out like a fly before you can even get your second volley in, let alone even complete your initial pass.

That is how a BoP feels. If you're not in a group of 2 or more, you have no chance of survival. If you have a lone federation escort, he'll completely mop the floor with you.

The BoP plays very much like the escort, only the escort not only has the DPS, it has literally in a lot of ways twice the combat capability, if not three times the combat capability of a BoP.

THey aren't OP by any means, but in many ways, ships such as the Defiant, were the answers to the Klingon BoPs, even seen in the DS9 series, the Defiant operates in the same capacity of BoP, is roughly the same size, etc.

But in video game stand point, it feels like everything federation side has better capability, both combat related, and non-combat related in comparison to the Klingon side, with the xception most klingon ships can don the disruptor.

However, any ship of any decent mobility, can render disruptor cannons on the klingon raptors and cruisers into complete garbage.

As far as DPM and longevity goes, Federation ships have much greater capabilities than Klingon Ships.

But overall, towards the discussion of Escorts, there is no reason why they should be any different from the BoP, considering their play styles are identical. Only thing the BoP has the Fed Escorts don't have, (which can be fixed, if the Defiant had a cloaking device, other escorts can) is the battle cloak, which if you matched BoP stats to the Escorts, gave escorts all universal slots. It's a win-win on both sides.

Compare to a Cruiser on Klingon or Federation side, battle cloak is useless when most players (who are smart) have the upgraded sensor modules that allow detecting of cloaked ships. Which means if the BoP player doesn't have stealth buffs, and sensor debuffs, he's running around with no shields or weapons, and will most likely be completely destroyed before he can even finish decloaking.

When you compare cruisers vs escorts and BoP overall, Cruisers win. They may have less DPS, but overall, one cruiser can slug it out with multiple ships. Escorts and BoP cannot slug it out with multiples.

in an Escort, you may be able to get through one pass because of the buffed shields and hull, but as a BoP you can't. Not unless you have a buddy with you. But overall, Escorts are largely outgunned, and out shielded by most cruisers.

In my Vorcha, I never have issues solo'ing Escorts. All I have to do is make a break off to the side, take the brunt of the first pass, and after that, unless they have disruptor turrets, I sit on/stay to the side, and let my cannons rip them apart with impunity. It becomes a waiting game as to whos got the most guns firing off to the side, and for the longest.

Toss in a few boarding parties, maybe ejecting plasma, same tactics federation cruiser side, makes BoP equally as under-gunned and under-capable when compared to cruisers.

Worse of all, is when you have a SCIENCE VESSEL with shield debuffs and sensor buffs, and their own personal shield reversals. Makes them completely immune to a BoP or anykind of ship other than a heavily beefed Cruiser.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 561
# 143
02-10-2013, 01:16 AM
A lot of the problem is that the ships don't have the roles they should.

Escorts (which I would have called "Warships" since escorts are only one type of combat ship) are designed for combat, so it makes sense they would be better at combat than other ships.

Science ships are designed to conduct research, so it would make sense that they would be better at that than other ships. Of course, there IS no research game. Ships don't do that in STO, there's only combat.

Cruisers (which I would have called "Starships") are designed for endurance (ie. Exploration missions) and multiroles. Thus, one would expect them to be capable in all areas, but not to be the best at anything. Again, though, there's nothing but combat, so the Cruiser is going to fall behind. It should be better at combat than the Science ship, but not as good as the Escort. Likewise, it should be better at research than the Escort (assuming there was such a thing in the game), but not as good as the Science ship.


In short, the problem isn't just with the ship design, it's a problem with the GAME design (which I've been saying since day 1...).
Once, I was simply called Mojo. Now, I'm forced into a new name, but don't be fooled, I'm the original STO Mojo!

Crafting, Exploration and Interaction as it should be:
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/sh....php?t=1108521
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,476
# 144
02-10-2013, 02:04 AM
Wow, there were so many wrong things that were said :shock:.

If you're flying a cruiser, use it as a cruiser (high shields power). Shields support, take all the aggro... The works.

If you're flying a science vessel, use it as such (high aux power). Heals, crowd control... The works.


Your science and cruiser builds feel not very overwhelming because you are not using them right. It's true and if you don't accept that very real fact, you sir/madam got an ego issue. Escorts are not OP, every thing in this game is VERY balanced (I can't stress that enough, devs did some amazing work here). Also, here's another piece of advice, try not to kirk out so many encounters. Team events do require teamwork, if you're acting on your own without a care in the world about team effort then you will have a harder time every freaking time.

I have tested a pure science builds with high aux power. I parsed my dps in ACT to see how I do. I managed almost a million damage in a fifteen min event when I was just a captain a few days ago. All this because I spec'ed for grav. gen./part. gen/flow cap. and I throw a lot of grav wells, tyken's rift, feedback pulse and tractor beam repulsors.

Actually, you wanna know what is OP? Here's the answer: experience and right timing of your abilities.
I want an official persistent officer title.
**~Reality under scrutiny~**
@haudace
UFP Fleet: Operation Omega Task Force | KDF Fleet: KHG Klingon Honor Guard
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 478
# 145
02-10-2013, 04:45 AM
Here's the thread I mentioned. At least at the time it was well received and the ship was fairly balanced.

http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/sh...rfleet+command

..and like children playing after sunset, we were surrounded by darkness." -Ruri Hoshino
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 236
# 146
02-10-2013, 05:11 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by momaw View Post
1.) Fix the weapon drain mechanics so that beams don't guzzle twice as much power as cannons. This isn't a DHC complaint: even turrets and single cannons are far more power efficient.

2.) Give Federation cruisers an additional +20 "discretionary power". You gain a new set of buttons above your power sliders, for weapon/shield/engine/aux. They are individual on/off toggles. The +20 power is split evenly between all of the subsystems that are toggled on.

This gives Federation cruisers something to balance KDF's 40-60% better turn rates, cloak, and dual cannons. And it stays within the spirit of the Federation which is "Science and engineering is awesome!"


It's as easy as that.
Beam array has 250 arc, means it can almost continuously fire, especially when equipped in front and back weapons slot.

High weapon drain is a tradeoff for the insanely wide arc. Plus with BO, it can crit for significant amount. Lowering the energy cost will only make cruisers the most OP ship. High hull, loads of eng skills to keep it alive.

Not sure if you notice that there're plenty of end skills to boost weapon power quickly (epta, auxtobatt, etc). Plus with power transfer console, i never ever face any issue with my weapon power management.

The problem is ppl keep spamming FAW, BO without considering their power levels. Learn to play with your strengths, many many very useful eng skills and consoles out there. Remember that eng consoles are not just neutroniums.

If you want power reduction, trade it with lower arc. Are you willing?
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,757
# 147
02-10-2013, 07:41 AM
I think he may mean adjust the drain of Beam Arrays to give them a downtime or rest period to regain lost power like DHCs currently enjoy.
The idea I like best is spreading thier drain out over the firing cycle so while they do fire the same rate they have a drain mechanic that builds up to a maximum drain of 10 for said cycle rather than applying it on every shot in the cycle.
Beams should kill by pressure.DHCs by brute force.
Roy Hatch (stryker) soldier, friend, and good man.
1945-2014
RIP
Community Moderator
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,657
# 148
02-10-2013, 07:45 AM
Multiple threads merged. OP, please stop creating multiple threads for the same thing.
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Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,757
# 149
02-10-2013, 08:17 AM
I have to agree though that wide 250degree firing arc beam weapons with high DPV and high DPS stats, plus bonus shield penetration plus bonus critical hit buffs built in before energy type is even figured in is a good idea that is going in the wrong direction.

Beams are meant to deliver a high DPV attack as a means to hurt shields quickly and cause them to drop. Unfortunetly they no longer seem to have that capability to treaten shields and have liitle BOff options that help.

I am still of the belief that the wide firing arcs of beams must grow smaller the higher thier damage grows. Otherwise they quickly becpme mary sue in design
Roy Hatch (stryker) soldier, friend, and good man.
1945-2014
RIP
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,616
# 150
02-10-2013, 08:24 AM
This post has been edited to remove content which violates the Perfect World Entertainment Community Rules and Policies . ~syberghost
Actualy reading things pefore posting will make you look smarter than yelling loudly. Reading comprehension is aparently a lost art.

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Last edited by syberghost; 02-11-2013 at 05:29 AM.
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