Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 3,634
# 21
02-10-2013, 08:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by alexindcobra View Post
Maybe you don't understand that you don't have to fly around with all DHC's in an escort. Nothing stops players from geting a mixture of DHC's and Cannons. Cannons have a 90 degree arcs and fire faster with rapid fire BOFF powers than its DHC counterparts. With Rapid Cannon Fire 2 and 3 have a longer sustaining rate of fire than ther RCF 1. The same goes for Rapid Cannon Volley Boff powers. I have flown escorts before because I have a Chirmira and I have a Klingon character with escorts and battlecruisers. Maybe you need to go back and look at how to build an escort. With cannons mixed with DHC's I can fly around in circles and deal alot of damage.

Do you realized that targeting subsystes don't do as well unless flying a science ship and you have to have your skill tree set up with high system decompiler for that to be effective? If you are in a cruiser or anthing else you risk sacrificing DPS or skills that help you tank.
Cannons with 90 degree firing arcs ? How interesting. lol

I am sure you are refering to single cannons which have a 180 degree firing arc... and do little more dmg then a turret.

Escorts running single cannons aren't going to kill anyone... well unless they are shooting at terrible players anyway.

Sorry DHC are the only real option on an escort.

As far as target sub systems go... I can see now why your build has issues with escorts. You are obviously building to win by simply not dying... last I checked the only way to win any fight in this game was to kill the other person. Simply not dying is NOT an option. If you have not planned your build to be capable of Winning... why would you expect to. If you just want to RP it up and chain EPTS throw some RSPs and pop some coloured beams of have at it... its fun to pretend where flying the enterprise at times.

However if you want to WIN fights in this Video Game... you best have a plan of attack. Is there opportunity cost in slotting OFFENSIVE skills.... ahh ya. Why is that a shock. YES I am suggesting you don't run 2 copies of Tac Team on your cruiser... trust me you will be just fine with 1... and if you time a sub system target even a level 1 properly it can turn a battle for you. NO its not an IWIN button haha you can't move I kill you now... however IT will be as effective as you choose to make it. As far as specing Decomp goes... haha you don't need points in Decomp to make sub systems useful... and if you want to spec some points in to decomp go for it... what are you going to loose ... wait hold on I'll use my mind reading powers to scry out your tier 5 point spend.... Hmmm 9 points in Kinetic armour.

Ok I'm sorry my tone can be harsh at times and I don't mean it to be... honestly though if you build 100% defense its no shock that you can't do anything about the escort on your tail. Sometimes the best defense is a good offense or so I hear.
When the messenger comes to appropriate your profits ... kill the messenger.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,725
# 22
02-10-2013, 10:21 PM
Time to post that Clausewitz quote again.


Click here and here if you are interested in learning more about PvP.
Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 3,634
# 23
02-10-2013, 11:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by snoge00f View Post
Time to post that Clausewitz quote again.
There are so many good ones... ya gotta love the Clause. lol
Hes a wealth of MMO gaming know how.

Some of my fav MMO design quotes

"If you entrench yourself behind strong fortifications, you compel the enemy seek a solution elsewhere." Karl von Clausewitz

That one sums up about every undead cruiser I ever ran into... there friends always die so nice.

Think you meant this one of course
"The best form of defense is attack." Karl von Clausewitz

Then theres the min maxers motto...
"Pursue one great decisive aim with force and determination." Karl von Clausewitz

Our Devs should read a little on war as well...
"...in war, the advantages and disadvantages of a single action could only be determined by the final balance." Karl von Clausewitz

Or...
My friend Daggers fav...
"The backbone of Surprise is fusing/melding speed with secrecy." Karl von Clausewitz
When the messenger comes to appropriate your profits ... kill the messenger.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,336
# 24
02-11-2013, 06:44 AM
And how does that address the inherent imbalance? It doesn't. But thanks for mentioning it again. I could just stack evasive doffs couldn't I? Is that a good answer? No it isn't. Im sorry you missed that one. Add it in to your stock. I could just run full impulse! There's another one for you.

Address the issue or don't. Don't confuse the issue. Not very helpful.
If I don't respond to posts on this forum don't be offended. I don't sub or follow any of them.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,465
# 25
02-11-2013, 10:14 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by thissler View Post
And how does that address the inherent imbalance? It doesn't. But thanks for mentioning it again. I could just stack evasive doffs couldn't I? Is that a good answer? No it isn't. Im sorry you missed that one. Add it in to your stock. I could just run full impulse! There's another one for you.

Address the issue or don't. Don't confuse the issue. Not very helpful.
What is the issue and foundation of the issue again? That things die too fast when disabled/debuffed? That non-escort ships don't have available fits to boost defense? That non-escort ships don't have counters to debuffs?

I still haven't read a why a disabled/debuffed target shouldn't die fast if no action is quickly taken. What's the point of a hit and run playstyle if nothing will die to the quick spike hit part? There many ways to counter these spike assaults now that we have gear/doffs/boffs/teamplay to pick from (and I'm not even counting Rep systems/Embassy Consoles).

If the argument is non-escorts can't keep a defensive rating up a high amount of time, it's a false argument. I've shown how they can have 60% defense boost in gear and doffs. This gear isn't something escorts would likely run b/c of the combat engines.

If the argument is there aren't Boff stations available to non-escort layouts to counter movement debuffs that's false as well. PH, TBR, Jam Sensors (for TB), Aux2Damp, Engine Batt, Evasives, Deut, ET are all available to non escort ships that have the Boff/Device layouts to counter Tbs/VMs and still fit their primary role w/o a hole in their build.

If the argument is that Escorts are too self reliant, that's probably true, but that is more b/c of rep system, embassy consoles (to a lesser degree), hybrid boff layouts, boosts to base shield/hp levels the past year+, the broken APO defense duration, and cooldown doffs allowing all ships (depending on the build) to preform at a much higher level than they otherwise could.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,192
# 26
02-11-2013, 10:47 AM
There is not much of hit and run anymore, its more of hit and stay.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 141
# 27
02-11-2013, 11:23 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by p2wsucks View Post
What is the issue and foundation of the issue again? That things die too fast when disabled/debuffed? That non-escort ships don't have available fits to boost defense? That non-escort ships don't have counters to debuffs?
The lack of counters is probably the biggest problem.
Quote:
If the argument is there aren't Boff stations available to non-escort layouts to counter movement debuffs that's false as well. PH, TBR, Jam Sensors (for TB), Aux2Damp, Engine Batt, Evasives, Deut, ET are all available to non escort ships that have the Boff/Device layouts to counter Tbs/VMs and still fit their primary role w/o a hole in their build.
All of those are available to escorts as well. Their use on non-escorts is limitted for the same reasons that it is limited on escorts.

The central problem is that APO is a great buff for DPS in addition to providing protection from movement debuffs, so an escort can use a couple of copies of it without having to hinder themselves in other ways. A science ship might work a copy of PH into it's build, but so could an escort, and both are likely to be giving up exactly the same powers to do it. The difference is that the escort is going to receive a large amount of protection from APO in addition to using PH for emergencies.

Honestly if Aux2Damp and PH were buffed a bit, that would probably level the playing field some, since those are available to all ship types. Just make both of them do what they currently do, but also render a ship immune to movement debuffs for their duration.

That would make them powerful, but both of those abilities conflict with other powerful abilities, so ships would still be losing something to get them. Running Aux2Damp means you can't chain Aux2SIF or Aux2Battery, and PH shares the same slots with HE, TSS, and TB.

Escorts would still have an edge, since they only need to cover the gaps when APO is not up, where most other ship types can't even run a single copy of APO.

It's just problematic that one ship type has so much better options for preserving it's defense than the others.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 12,464
# 28
02-11-2013, 11:43 AM
In talking about the mix of different abilities for boosting movement, I think it's also important to take a gander at this: http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/sh...1&postcount=17

There's a problem. Let's call it X.

Also we've got this: http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/sh...d.php?t=545061

Let's call that Y.

There's the issue with APO - let's call that Z.

In general, folks (including myself) tend to spend time looking at X, Y, or Z.

Thing is, it's not just X, Y, Z... there's all sorts of little problems here and there. They all add up. It's that cumulative effect of all the little problems...that is the Problem.

If you look at A, and A's just a little broken - maybe A is dismissed. The same with B. The same with C. The same with D. The same with E. But hey, what if it's a case of A, B, C, and D?

Welcome to STO....
Maal, Klingon, Mogh - Vegar, Orion, Marauder - R'ebel, Romulan, Haakona
Willard the Rat, Reman, F.T'varo - Rave, J.Trill, Kar'Fi - Mysk, Gorn, Varanus
Kopor, Nausicaan, Guramba - Nivuh, Ferasan, B'rel - Venit, Lethean, M.Qin
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,465
# 29
02-11-2013, 11:56 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by inktomi19 View Post
The lack of counters is probably the biggest problem.

All of those are available to escorts as well. Their use on non-escorts is limitted for the same reasons that it is limited on escorts.

The central problem is that APO is a great buff for DPS in addition to providing protection from movement debuffs, so an escort can use a couple of copies of it without having to hinder themselves in other ways. A science ship might work a copy of PH into it's build, but so could an escort, and both are likely to be giving up exactly the same powers to do it. The difference is that the escort is going to receive a large amount of protection from APO in addition to using PH for emergencies.

Honestly if Aux2Damp and PH were buffed a bit, that would probably level the playing field some, since those are available to all ship types. Just make both of them do what they currently do, but also render a ship immune to movement debuffs for their duration.

That would make them powerful, but both of those abilities conflict with other powerful abilities, so ships would still be losing something to get them. Running Aux2Damp means you can't chain Aux2SIF or Aux2Battery, and PH shares the same slots with HE, TSS, and TB.

Escorts would still have an edge, since they only need to cover the gaps when APO is not up, where most other ship types can't even run a single copy of APO.

It's just problematic that one ship type has so much better options for preserving it's defense than the others.
For single Aux2Batt builds, Aux2Damp does fit in the middle of it's cycle. 10 secondsx2 = 20 which is less than the Aux2batt cooldown.

PH sharing the same slot w/HE, TSS, and TB makes it harder for an escort to use and easier for Sci oriented ships to use. Also, you left out PSW and TBR are counters for TBs, the primary movement/defense debuff.

APO issues aren't from people running dual copies there's an opportunity cost and all APO versions, ie APO1 and APO3, aren't equal. APO issues primarily come from cooldowns allowing just 1 APO to be run as 2, openning up other Boff slots or even getting away w/just 1 Tac Boff depending on the ship and still maintaining 2x APO. The other issue w/APO is the apparently broken defense bonus lasting more than 15sec.

Even w/APO's movement debuff counter, if the defense was fixed the target could still be hit w/TSSE much more easily. Human Boffs have hurt the other movement debuff via engine power (VM).

Also, if anyone really wants to the can run the 3 part KHG set. It's less likely to be run by escorts b/c of the crap engines, but ships w/crappy turnrates (mostly fed support cruisers) would do fine in it and it has a chainable AoE +30 defense.

Pressure damage is an issue, but it's an issue across the board. It's not realated to defense, but mostly the Fleet shields, Rep system passives, and Embassy console repairs.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,465
# 30
02-11-2013, 11:58 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by virusdancer View Post
In talking about the mix of different abilities for boosting movement, I think it's also important to take a gander at this: http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/sh...1&postcount=17

There's a problem. Let's call it X.

Also we've got this: http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/sh...d.php?t=545061

Let's call that Y.

There's the issue with APO - let's call that Z.

In general, folks (including myself) tend to spend time looking at X, Y, or Z.

Thing is, it's not just X, Y, Z... there's all sorts of little problems here and there. They all add up. It's that cumulative effect of all the little problems...that is the Problem.

If you look at A, and A's just a little broken - maybe A is dismissed. The same with B. The same with C. The same with D. The same with E. But hey, what if it's a case of A, B, C, and D?

Welcome to STO....
I don't disagree generally. But, atm imo, the biggest issues are passive resists combined w/passive repairs.

Edit: 2nd would be the cooldown reductions to Boff powers.
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 09:13 AM.