Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,400
# 111
02-11-2013, 05:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by virusdancer View Post
The spike guys are already going to be capping the Fleets against any incoming energy damage
Not if they're any good.


Quote:
Originally Posted by virusdancer View Post
- the rainbow guys eventually capping the Fleets against other damage won't really matter if they're there for their procs. That damage isn't getting done anyway.
They prime the target's shields vs. their own escorts.




Quote:
Originally Posted by webdeath View Post
I'm not one normally to say something like this.. but honestly.. I think I need to..

L2R

And if you think all of those nerfs are going to happen you are one of the most optimistic players I've ever met in any MMO.


Sometimes, you have to be a little bit realistic.


You also pointed to all of the wrong places to tone healing down.

So I read it, but it wasn't really accurate and toning down damage first is not the way to go. Damage is what is lacking right now, not survivability.


That's what this entire thread is about, so "L2R"? Right back at you.


Last edited by ussultimatum; 02-11-2013 at 05:08 PM.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,764
# 112
02-11-2013, 05:33 PM
Escorts shouldnt be able to cycle two copies of EPTS? Why? Its not as if only escorts can do it. The fact one can cycle any power should not be an issue.
Richard Hamilton (1975-2014)
goodbye good friend. We will see you in the DMZ in the sky oneday, save a shot for us.
Rihannsu
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,497
# 113
02-11-2013, 05:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ussultimatum View Post
So I read it, but it wasn't really accurate and toning down damage first is not the way to go. Damage is what is lacking right now, not survivability.


That's what this entire thread is about, so "L2R"? Right back at you.
Apparently you didn't read it. Or even comprehend what I was talking about.

I was not referring to a 2 Stage change to the game. I was referring to a whole change that would require 2 parts of the game to be changed at the same time. Which was a Reduction of Spike based damage, AND a reduction of healing. OBVIOUSLY You can't do one with out the other. You can't reduce spike damage with out reducing healing effects. But apparently you did not feel that I knew that. You must be mistaking me for some one who just started playing this game yesterday.

Could this change be done? Possibly. But the development staff might have their own Vision for the game that we don't know right now. They are how ever listening to feed back. And that is what I was giving. Not an Expectation, but feedback.
You think that your beta test was bad?
Think about this:
American Football has been in open beta for 144 years. ~Kotaku
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 114
# 114
02-11-2013, 05:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by virusdancer View Post
See, I don't think it makes sense for Phasers to have the 2.5% Disable Proc (the Covariant Phaser Pulse was a special attack - along the lines of a Subsystem Targeting or Beam Target Subsystem Attack...not some willy nilly RNG thing). I'd give Phasers a DEM Proc. Based on the fact that they've all been upgraded to be multiphasic with variable frequencies to be more effective against Borg shielding...so they'd be likely to do more damage through shields at random times. DEM Proc!

Photon Torpedoes on the other hand - we almost always see those buggers creating Star Trek Shake and blowing crap up inside ships - causing all sorts of havoc. Tada, the 2.5% Disable Proc... Photon Torpedoes.

Given that the Ferengi are selling Concentrated Tachyon Mines... I'm wondering where the Concentrated Tachyon Torpedo is? Something along the lines of a Tric Torp...that booms shields instead of hull. And like a Tric Torp, lol - something you could get caught in the splash of, eh?



Tachyon torp,,,i like the sound of that.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 151
# 115 There there....
02-11-2013, 06:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by devorasx View Post
Just duelled a bud who flew a JHAS with elite adaptive shields res A type. In the course of near 20 mins he did roughly 755k healing and 250k dmg. I was flying my Wells, with a 6 beam boat, 3 photonic ships, a warbird while spamming VM3, SNB, Heavy Grav beam, and PSW on him, not to mention i backstepped when i could to hurry the skills back. But did he go down?

NO. Simply no! Was i close? Yes. But the passives, and active cloack ability bought him time to escape and heal up, and he tanked all that damage really fine thanks to the shields.

Was i rather upset when i left the match? You bet i was! Without those shields and the horrific rep passsives +1 space active he would have never survived.

Yet, he did. This added survivalbilty adds so much longevity to escorts, and virtually nothing to other ships as they can simply burst them down.
*Pats his Sci Brother on the back*. There there..... I know.... I KNOW it hurts.... let it out. It'll get better. Be patient. The empire WILL strike back. We WILL have our revenge. AND THEN..... we.... shall...... have........ peace.

Let no other player discourage you from what you believe you can achieve in PvP. Though you may walk alone through looming shadows of doubt cast upon you by your enemies. Forge your heart with iron casting its shape out of only your pure will to push forward. You will not be denied eventually.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 151
# 116 Hit and STAY?!!!
02-11-2013, 06:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ocp001 View Post
True. The oddest part is how escorts control the battlefield. Hit and run or hit and stay. Hit and chase down escaping ships. Conversely, the majority of science ships and cruisers can't maneuver or effectively escape (comparatively) or do significant pressure damage or spike. All that plus tanking abilities that rival cruisers... It's skewed.

From cruisers online to Escorts online.
dA fUQ? When was it the role of an escort to hit and STAY? You see THIS is my main issue with all of this. In part the issue sits with tac team. Now all this discussion about we need tac team now. I'm not buying into that. We don't NEED tac team. Now there may be more healing now but there is certainly as many have pointed out also more damage.

I mean Tac captains can now fly starships with bridge officer layouts that when properly setup will allow them to have 100% uptime on keeping their ship pointed at any target. Now do I want to see tac team banned from the game? No. Too many are now addicted to it like sum druggie. No I agree with Dontdrunkimshoot. Bring it down to 5 seconds. Because 10 seconds is not only imbalanced relative to engineering team and science team but its downright abusive for an ensign level skill to be that effective at mitigating burst damage. Let alone any decent kind of sustained damage. And now the effectiveness of skills like fire on my mark and boarding party are brought back into the realm of usefulness.

Secondly anything not already mentioned but additionally contributing to this "Hit and Stay" phenomenon the escort is currently gifted with needs to be seriously looked at. I wouldn't nerf the escorts damage at all. Period. DON'T TOUCH IT. I was maining my escort when it was more effective to ram and self destruct than to even bother firing my cannons. I think escort damage is in a great spot. Just where it should be. Escorts are supposed to be able to destroy a target before the thought of "surviving" even becomes a question. So in this way they are DPS "tanks". They tank through virtue of "speed kill".

I mean someone else touched on this point already as well. Engy in a cruiser can run epts 3 and sacrifice alot more with not much better result than an escort with tac team1 epts1, and an elite fleet shield. Throw in passives and we get this Hit and STAY wonder ship already mentioned.

I think we need simple changes. First make beam damage viable again specifically for sci and engy captains in science ships and cruisers. You can help this by bringing tac teams shield distribution down to 5 seconds which will bring its secondary effect somewhat in line with the secondary effects of the other two teams.

I believe Killerparadise also mentioned about bringing back the dps to science ships. Another issue specifically with the ineffectiveness of many sci skills is the fact that tactical captains can buff our skills. Why? Why are tactical captains able to buff anything other than beam/cannon/torpedo damage? You see this is another issue. Tactical captains should not have a monopoly over science based damage. They are science skills for a reason. They are a way for SCIENCE captains to do damage. And when you go nerfing sci skills so tacs can't abuse them we are left with the sorry state that is most of the science skills we have now. So Secondly I would only allow tactical captains to buff the damage of beams, cannons, turrets and torpedoes.

Thirdly escort captains certainly are resistant to a lot. This isnt a "nerf escorts" cry either. But alot of the current issue revolves around the fact that they can do it all. Tank, Dps, and heal quite well. This is evident from all the 3 man escort teams running around in the queues to which there is not nearly as much disadvantage as there is advantage. Tac captains can easily spec for 90% uptime on resists to any kind of hold assuming they are not subnuked.

Now it has been suggested by some to lower their defense or remove the defensive bonuses from skills like attack pattern omega altogether. I don't think this is necessary. Again. Small Changes. Escorts can chain omegas. I wouldnt take away their ability to chain attack patterns. I don't think thats fair. I would reduce the resist to holds in attack pattern omega. Lets drop it to 10 seconds instead of 15. Now there is more of an opening to counter with holds like tractor beam or warp plasma.

From here we can also look at what passives may need to be looked at. But I think we will all fare much better with small changes. I would hate for tacs to feel as useless as many science captains do currently for anything other than babysitting escorts with science heals. Or as useless as Engineers in cruisers who feel like their damage doesn't even matter. Things like that just aren't right.

-Captain Shift-

p.s.: Is pressure damage dead? I don't believe pressure damage is dead. If we are exclusively talking about escorts it could be argued that it is. But then how would you explain escorts still running all energy? Surely a torp offers better "spike" potential than all energy right? If we are not talking about escorts then some additions to the game leave the subject to be argued. As sci ships are still more than capable of "pressure damage". Not sure about cruisers.

Let no other player discourage you from what you believe you can achieve in PvP. Though you may walk alone through looming shadows of doubt cast upon you by your enemies. Forge your heart with iron casting its shape out of only your pure will to push forward. You will not be denied eventually.

Last edited by tripwire690; 02-11-2013 at 10:38 PM.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 151
# 117 I like this.
02-11-2013, 07:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by webdeath View Post
I'm not one normally to say something like this.. but honestly.. I think I need to..

L2R
Originally Posted by webdeath
Severely reduce healing and resists with considerations towards a team environment.

That's right.. in a 5 man environment healing could be toned down considerably. This could be anywhere from Reducing the heals you get from the Tier 3 Team abilities, to reducing the resists Hazard and Polarized hull gives, to even reducing how much healing is given based on Aux power for Hazard Emitters and Aux to Structural. Same could be said for Transfer Shield Strength and Emergency Power to Shields. Let's face it, in PVE, the way it's balanced right now, you need Crazy amounts of healing and resists in some fights (Boss fights mostly) in order to both survive and take down said bosses. In PVP.. you don't. Your fighting each other and the most hull a ship will have is close to 60k



I think webdeath has a point here. Is there anyone who would have an objection to seperating pvP from pvE gearwise? I mean honestly. Another frustrating thing is this apprehension from the dev team to change anything to better pvp for fear it will ruin pvE. Can we just seperate the two so we; The people of the Pew Pew, get some well overdue love? I'm talkin two step not half step changes here. Then you can tweak either one to make both areas of the game as awesome as possible without pvE stepping on pvp's feet all the time. Or pvp ruining the pvE cha-cha. (Not that pvp has ever had a problem dancing. Its pve'rs who have the two left feet.) Just sayin.

-Captain Shift-

Let no other player discourage you from what you believe you can achieve in PvP. Though you may walk alone through looming shadows of doubt cast upon you by your enemies. Forge your heart with iron casting its shape out of only your pure will to push forward. You will not be denied eventually.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,400
# 118
02-11-2013, 07:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by webdeath View Post
Apparently you didn't read it. Or even comprehend what I was talking about.
Listen man, if you really think its time to have a pee v pee match, that's your prerogative. Try a bit of perspective maybe?

Or is this the part where you start resorting to insults in every response post?


Quote:
Originally Posted by webdeath View Post
Which was a Reduction of Spike based damage, AND a reduction of healing. OBVIOUSLY You can't do one with out the other.
This is where I disagree.

Outside of the extra crit percentages, which I admit are quite large but are also getting at least a mild nerf soon, what else has been added that has kept pace with the amount of passive healing and passive resistances?

Spike hasn't actually changed, pressure damage hasn't actually changed - the environment around them has.

Rihannsu
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,497
# 119
02-11-2013, 07:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ussultimatum View Post
This is where I disagree.

Outside of the extra crit percentages, which I admit are quite large but are also getting at least a mild nerf soon, what else has been added that has kept pace with the amount of passive healing and passive resistances?

Spike hasn't actually changed, pressure damage hasn't actually changed - the environment around them has.
First off, I'm just going to be the better man and disregard what ever you were trying to continue to do in that first quote of my posts. This thread needs constructive feedback, not flame wars and troll attempts.

Second: You say Damage hasn't changed?

I recall where originally you had to not only skill into 3 skills, but they changed it so that Skilling 9 Points previously, is only skilling 6 points today.

Also, we have 2 Escort class ships that can use 5 Damage consoles.

Getting more Damage for 2 skills, And now 2 ships that have 5 Damage consoles equals more damage then before. And this improved Spike damage the most, because that was already high and now it's just higher.

Your right, Heals haven't been much different. They are some what higher thanks to that same Skill change, where instead of having to skill between two or three skills you maybe have to skill one and 6 Points in that one skill is the same as what 9 points used to be in the others.

How ever that is where things stop being the same.

There are now more Abilities that add to healing. Whether it's a passive effect from the Borg set. Healing proc effects from Fleet Consoles. Or bolstering and healing effects from Reputations, healing is quite nearly out of control.

Those two factors is what has turned the game from moderately balanced, into the Spike vs Super heals we have today. Yes, healing was out of control in the past, but never to the level it is now. Making it almost necessary to bring spike damage, because Pressure Damage has been completely negated thanks to the increased amount of healing.
You think that your beta test was bad?
Think about this:
American Football has been in open beta for 144 years. ~Kotaku
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,294
# 120
02-11-2013, 07:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by tripwire690 View Post
Originally Posted by webdeath
Severely reduce healing and resists with considerations towards a team environment.

That's right.. in a 5 man environment healing could be toned down considerably. This could be anywhere from Reducing the heals you get from the Tier 3 Team abilities, to reducing the resists Hazard and Polarized hull gives, to even reducing how much healing is given based on Aux power for Hazard Emitters and Aux to Structural. Same could be said for Transfer Shield Strength and Emergency Power to Shields. Let's face it, in PVE, the way it's balanced right now, you need Crazy amounts of healing and resists in some fights (Boss fights mostly) in order to both survive and take down said bosses. In PVP.. you don't. Your fighting each other and the most hull a ship will have is close to 60k



I think webdeath has a point here. Is there anyone who would have an objection to seperating pvP from pvE gearwise? I mean honestly. Another frustrating thing is this apprehension from the dev team to change anything to better pvp for fear it will ruin pvE. Can we just seperate the two so we; The people of the Pew Pew, get some well overdue love? I'm talkin two step not half step changes here. Then you can tweak either one to make both areas of the game as awesome as possible without pvE stepping on pvp's feet all the time. Or pvp ruining the pvE cha-cha. (Not that pvp has ever had a problem dancing. Its pve'rs who have the two left feet.) Just sayin.

-Captain Shift-
To ask for a 2 tier system to cater for a minority is financially unfeasable. So based on that, your request would fall on death ears.

Why tone down ANY type of damage be it spike or sustained? To me both should be as viable as each other or else you will see matches run for hours on end between 2 competing teams and trust me, I don't want it to be like that. Been in too many of them.

As for the healing, the more you nerf it, the less viable you will make the engi even if this mythical FAW is fixed. What role will the engi play then? Healing on a personal level seems very balanced at this point in time. Its the passives you need to address be it from shields or traits. That's what is going out of control.

I really do think that right now, the meta game is in such a flux right now, I haven't enjoyed STO this much in a long time trying to figure out what works and doesn't work anymore.

I think overall I personally think the game from a PvP point of view is heading in an interesting direction. Granted its got its issues but hey, one thing we haven't seen until now is active PvP related changes and devs who can actually influence change working with us.

I know we have waited a few years for attention, so what's a few months more? Lets see what the May changes bring us. In the mean time, sit back, experiment and have fun.

Things like classic PvP are fun, but what's the point in a very fixed scenario? I love it right now that you can't run 4 man FAW boats with 1 escort. Do we want to return to something like that? Not me.

Just food for thought guys and girls:
We all talk about and cry for balance, but have you thought of what your asking to balance against? What is your benchmark for this balance. I know I truly can't answer that question right now.
.

Last edited by naz4; 02-11-2013 at 07:58 PM.
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