Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 12,751
# 31
02-11-2013, 01:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by p2wsucks View Post
I don't disagree generally. But, atm imo, the biggest issues are passive resists combined w/passive repairs.

Edit: 2nd would be the cooldown reductions to Boff powers.
But that's the thing I'm trying to say. It's not just any of the individual items I listed. It's not the individual items you listed. It's not a pissing contest between Issue A and Issue R. It's that combination of all of the things together.

If you only address one out of the countless little issues, the cumulative effect of those remaining issues is likely going to be more of a problem than the problem which was resolved.

Cryptic needs to fix a bunch of crap all at the same time to start getting anywhere with this. And if in going through and doing that, they find that something's not working as well as it should...they can bump that up (one at a time) - see how that works - see what it affected - and then keep working through all the variables.

Otherwise, nothing's ever actually going to be fixed nor balanced.

There was a convo in OPvP yesterday, where some of us were talking about it - I was wondering what effect doing the following to one of my builds in a Chel Grett would mean...

Already has +15% Defense (9 Maneuvers), +10% Defense (Elusive), +10% Defense (Escort), +5% Defense (Aegis engines), +5% Defense (2pc Aegis w/ Deflector)...which gives him +90% Defense while moving. Even at quarter impulse on x/25 Eng Power, he's at +90% Defense. Sitting still, he's at 15% Defense (as long as he's moved, respawn/warp in doesn't count the +15% from Maneuvers so he'd be at 0% during that scenario - and - apparently the +10% for Escort only counts while moving).

What if I were to add the AMACO shields into that mix with the Subvert Targeting?

As is, somebody with ACCx3 weapons, Accurate, and 9 Targeting is looking at an 80% chance to hit me when I don't have APO running. If they don't ACCx3, Accurate, and 9 Targeting - they're looking at a 52.3% chance of hitting when I'm not running APO. Then there's EM, SFM, etc that can further boost Defense.

He's got his lil' Borg secondary bubble for it's tiny chance at Reactive Deflection. He's got the T4 Rom shield heal on being crit proc. DCE'd EPtS means full uptime on EPtS. Still runs one BFI DOFF. He's got two Conn(TT) DOFFs so TT's at global as well as that boost for the dual APOs. He runs BTW for the shennanigans. I'll switch out his Sci BOFF depending on my mood what's going on, so he'll either also have PH1 or VM1. And...he's an Engineer*.

So...in adding the AMACO shields with Subvert... what would that do for the overall defense of this escort?

Let me jump ahead for a moment, because any experienced PvPer should see that the easiest way to deal with this particular boat is with chained SNBs/VMs with tractors. Yep, he'll ignore single SNBs/VMs/tractors - chain it and pop him. Well, as long as nobody's supporting him. But yeah, without support and that taking place - pops pretty damn fast. It's a crying shame how fast he'll pop when before that he was appearing invincible.

But again, it's an Engineer. So there's no damage. If I were to link his skill build, you'd likely say it was a Tac. Where he suffers for damage is on two fronts - he doesn't have the Tac innate abilities and he's using beams. BEAMS? WTF? I wouldn't have made such a big deal out of the defense if it was a case that I had to play with that narrow 45 arc and trying to sit on a target. Nope, I just fly around going wheeeeee...

...with 4x Romulan Plasma Beam Array Mk XII [Acc]x2's, a placeholder for the Experimental Beam Array (man that grind burnt me out so fast) in the form of just a regular ol' Plasma Beam Array, the Cutting Beam, the Omega and Hyper-Plasma Torps. 8.9% base crit (after passives/consoles), +25% base bonus accuracy, +30 Weapon Training, 4x Infusers, blah, blah, blah...

...it's got more damage and more survivability than if I tried it in a Cruiser.

But it's still LOLdamage in the end, I won't argue that in the least. The boat's awesome in Ker'rat or PUG queues... vs. PUGmades or Premades? Just another dead noob laughed at in OPvP.

So you drop the Eng. You run five with 2x Tac and 3x Sci. You switch the weapons. DHCs for the Tac guys, knowing they might temporarily give up some Defense for their shots. You give the Sci guys a mix - work in some Chrons, go with Phaser/Disruptor/Polaron/Tetryon weapons. You BOFF out to cover crosshealing/cleanses.

Why would you need any other ships other than Escorts? Is it any one thing? No... it's all the things combined - the cumulative effect.

It's why I can run an Engineer in a Beamscort...which although it's still highly laughable, is a Hell of a lot better than it should be. So I still wonder about those AMACO shields...doubt I would do the grind for the MACO set first to be able to get them. I'll likely just stick to Plan A - switching out the Aegis Deflector/Shields for MACO Deflector/Shields...giving up 5% defense while moving for the better deflector and shields - including that additional reduction to energy damage vs shields (the additional for Plasma), the additional subsystem power from getting hit, and the increased insulation and recharge buff from the 2pc.

Again, imho - it's the cumulative effect of all the stuff we can do - it all adds up. When things are off here and there with many of those pieces - it all adds up...

...and we know there's more on the way.

edit: And doh, I forgot to mention the Human BOFFs with that now that Leadership's been fixed again...oh well.
Maal, Klingon, Mogh - Vegar, Orion, Marauder - R'ebel, Romulan, Haakona
Willard the Rat, Reman, F.T'varo - Rave, J.Trill, Kar'Fi - Mysk, Gorn, Varanus
Kopor, Nausicaan, Guramba - Nivuh, Ferasan, B'rel - Venit, Lethean, M.Qin

Last edited by virusdancer; 02-11-2013 at 02:01 PM.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,465
# 32
02-11-2013, 02:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by virusdancer View Post
But that's the thing I'm trying to say. It's not just any of the individual items I listed. It's not the individual items you listed. It's not a pissing contest between Issue A and Issue R. It's that combination of all of the things together.

If you only address one out of the countless little issues, the cumulative effect of those remaining issues is likely going to be more of a problem than the problem which was resolved.

Cryptic needs to fix a bunch of crap all at the same time to start getting anywhere with this. And if in going through and doing that, they find that something's not working as well as it should...they can bump that up (one at a time) - see how that works - see what it affected - and then keep working through all the variables.

Otherwise, nothing's ever actually going to be fixed nor balanced.

There was a convo in OPvP yesterday, where some of us were talking about it - I was wondering what effect doing the following to one of my builds in a Chel Grett would mean...

Already has +15% Defense (9 Maneuvers), +10% Defense (Elusive), +10% Defense (Escort), +5% Defense (Aegis engines), +5% Defense (2pc Aegis w/ Deflector)...which gives him +90% Defense while moving. Even at quarter impulse on x/25 Eng Power, he's at +90% Defense. Sitting still, he's at 15% Defense (as long as he's moved, respawn/warp in doesn't count the +15% from Maneuvers so he'd be at 0% during that scenario - and - apparently the +10% for Escort only counts while moving).

What if I were to add the AMACO shields into that mix with the Subvert Targeting?

As is, somebody with ACCx3 weapons, Accurate, and 9 Targeting is looking at an 80% chance to hit me when I don't have APO running. If they don't ACCx3, Accurate, and 9 Targeting - they're looking at a 52.3% chance of hitting when I'm not running APO. Then there's EM, SFM, etc that can further boost Defense.

He's got his lil' Borg secondary bubble for it's tiny chance at Reactive Deflection. He's got the T4 Rom shield heal on being crit proc. DCE'd EPtS means full uptime on EPtS. Still runs one BFI DOFF. He's got two Conn(TT) DOFFs so TT's at global as well as that boost for the dual APOs. He runs BTW for the shennanigans. I'll switch out his Sci BOFF depending on my mood what's going on, so he'll either also have PH1 or VM1. And...he's an Engineer*.

So...in adding the AMACO shields with Subvert... what would that do for the overall defense of this escort?

Let me jump ahead for a moment, because any experienced PvPer should see that the easiest way to deal with this particular boat is with chained SNBs/VMs with tractors. Yep, he'll ignore single SNBs/VMs/tractors - chain it and pop him. Well, as long as nobody's supporting him. But yeah, without support and that taking place - pops pretty damn fast. It's a crying shame how fast he'll pop when before that he was appearing invincible.

But again, it's an Engineer. So there's no damage. If I were to link his skill build, you'd likely say it was a Tac. Where he suffers for damage is on two fronts - he doesn't have the Tac innate abilities and he's using beams. BEAMS? WTF? I wouldn't have made such a big deal out of the defense if it was a case that I had to play with that narrow 45 arc and trying to sit on a target. Nope, I just fly around going wheeeeee...

...with 4x Romulan Plasma Beam Array Mk XII [Acc]x2's, a placeholder for the Experimental Beam Array (man that grind burnt me out so fast) in the form of just a regular ol' Plasma Beam Array, the Cutting Beam, the Omega and Hyper-Plasma Torps. 8.9% base crit (after passives/consoles), +25% base bonus accuracy, +30 Weapon Training, 4x Infusers, blah, blah, blah...

...it's got more damage and more survivability than if I tried it in a Cruiser.

But it's still LOLdamage in the end, I won't argue that in the least. The boat's awesome in Ker'rat or PUG queues... vs. PUGmades or Premades? Just another dead noob laughed at in OPvP.

So you drop the Eng. You run five with 2x Tac and 3x Sci. You switch the weapons. DHCs for the Tac guys, knowing they might temporarily give up some Defense for their shots. You give the Sci guys a mix - work in some Chrons, go with Phaser/Disruptor/Polaron/Tetryon weapons. You BOFF out to cover crosshealing/cleanses.

Why would you need any other ships other than Escorts? Is it any one thing? No... it's all the things combined - the cumulative effect.

It's why I can run an Engineer in a Beamscort...which although it's still highly laughable, is a Hell of a lot better than it should be. So I still wonder about those AMACO shields...doubt I would do the grind for the MACO set first to be able to get them. I'll likely just stick to Plan A - switching out the Aegis Deflector/Shields for MACO Deflector/Shields...giving up 5% defense while moving for the better deflector and shields - including that additional reduction to energy damage vs shields (the additional for Plasma), the additional subsystem power from getting hit, and the increased insulation and recharge buff from the 2pc.

Again, imho - it's the cumulative effect of all the stuff we can do - it all adds up. When things are off here and there with many of those pieces - it all adds up...

...and we know there's more on the way.
Again, I generally agree the whole is greater than the some of its parts. But, some parts do have more impact than others.

Having run it before I can tell you at best the 90 defensive base value w/KHG shields passive buys you a little time. Often it doesn't b/c people are running w/high Acc procs and/or movement (thereby defensive value) debuffs. Quite frankly even before the fleet stuff and all it wasn't that practical to count on those 90 defense +KHG shield procs as there are/were better gear/fitting combos for surviving. This combo has been around for over a year now on KDF side.

As far as defense maxing goes, aiming for 90 as a max is not the best option. 140-150 w/KHG MEF and Recall Doffs is, and it fits slow support ships better than escorts b/c of how crappy combat engines are for escorts. Seriously, 4 spamming ships can be at 110 and when under FF spike to 140 when in recall w/o counting evasives et al. Tbh, from messing around for a week or so w/KHG 3 part and a single purple recall doff this is effective unless debuffed.

The root cause of pressure damage going by the wayside has been the Fleet shield resist boosts combined w/the passive repairs. It doesn't matter if the escort was at a dead stop or not, the high resists combined w/the high frequency of passive repairs all but negates the pressure damage.

The next issue is what allies escorts to keep such a high uptime on 1 copy of APO and 1 copy of APD opening up Boff slots while maintaining such a high defense. It's the cooldown reduction Doffs. This doesn't mean there aren't Doffs to help the team repairside, but to acknowledge it's helped keep them in fights longer w/shorter times between spikes.

There are still many ways to drop a targets defense (SNBs, VMs, Drains, TBs, Omega 3 part bonus, EWP, Target Engines etc).

There are no ways to lower a shields resists short of an SNB buff strip which wouldn't be all that effective vs a target w/Fleet shields since they'd just charge back up in no time. Also, it's not hard to build in redundancy for shield resist spike and there always the max shield preset.

SS Doffs and SNBs are the only way to lengthen cooldowns (an indirect debuff of cooldown reducing doffs).

In otherwords there are next to no counters for cooldown reducing Doff effects and max shield resists (not to mention the passive repairs). There are a crap ton of counters for high defense. This is why it shouldn't be a high priority compared to the other 2.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 12,751
# 33
02-11-2013, 03:07 PM
If I gave you the complete build for a 5 man team - skill builds, ship 'n gear, BOFFs, DOFFs... you could in turn build a 5 man team to beat them, no?
Maal, Klingon, Mogh - Vegar, Orion, Marauder - R'ebel, Romulan, Haakona
Willard the Rat, Reman, F.T'varo - Rave, J.Trill, Kar'Fi - Mysk, Gorn, Varanus
Kopor, Nausicaan, Guramba - Nivuh, Ferasan, B'rel - Venit, Lethean, M.Qin
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 598
# 34
02-11-2013, 03:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by antoniosalieri View Post
Cannons with 90 degree firing arcs ? How interesting. lol

I am sure you are refering to single cannons which have a 180 degree firing arc... and do little more dmg then a turret.

Escorts running single cannons aren't going to kill anyone... well unless they are shooting at terrible players anyway.

Sorry DHC are the only real option on an escort.

As far as target sub systems go... I can see now why your build has issues with escorts. You are obviously building to win by simply not dying... last I checked the only way to win any fight in this game was to kill the other person. Simply not dying is NOT an option. If you have not planned your build to be capable of Winning... why would you expect to. If you just want to RP it up and chain EPTS throw some RSPs and pop some coloured beams of have at it... its fun to pretend where flying the enterprise at times.

However if you want to WIN fights in this Video Game... you best have a plan of attack. Is there opportunity cost in slotting OFFENSIVE skills.... ahh ya. Why is that a shock. YES I am suggesting you don't run 2 copies of Tac Team on your cruiser... trust me you will be just fine with 1... and if you time a sub system target even a level 1 properly it can turn a battle for you. NO its not an IWIN button haha you can't move I kill you now... however IT will be as effective as you choose to make it. As far as specing Decomp goes... haha you don't need points in Decomp to make sub systems useful... and if you want to spec some points in to decomp go for it... what are you going to loose ... wait hold on I'll use my mind reading powers to scry out your tier 5 point spend.... Hmmm 9 points in Kinetic armour.

Ok I'm sorry my tone can be harsh at times and I don't mean it to be... honestly though if you build 100% defense its no shock that you can't do anything about the escort on your tail. Sometimes the best defense is a good offense or so I hear.
Yeah, my mistake on the 90 degrees, but you are wrong about the single cannons doing damage barely above turrets. If you fire them at normal speed yeah the would seem to be slow but its DPS is higher than beams and when using Rapid fire they do way more DPS than beams and at a faster pace. In conjuction with a couple DHC's, RCF 2 or 3 you can keep the high rate of fire sustained. Plus with the weapons officer DOFF that recharges the Cannon Rapid fire quicker, you can maitain rate of fire almost uninterrupted.

On a cruiser build unfortunatlely, offences are weak in the rear, no matter what you do. STO don't allow you to put cannons back there and they nerfed the hell out of torpedoes. Even science spam can only be activated from the front. If you don't have an adequate defense, you will just be dead faster.

Last edited by alexindcobra; 02-11-2013 at 03:12 PM.
Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 3,672
# 35
02-11-2013, 03:14 PM
NO ship can slot anything but turrets in the rear... Cruisers do fine with turrets and single cannons... the main issue with cannons on cruisers is mostly dmg distance drop off... keeping a cruiser in >3k range is obviously more of a pain.

Single cannons are only higher dmg then beams at less then 3k distance to target... just fyi when your using em.
When the messenger comes to appropriate your profits ... kill the messenger.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 598
# 36
02-11-2013, 03:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by antoniosalieri View Post
NO ship can slot anything but turrets in the rear... Cruisers do fine with turrets and single cannons... the main issue with cannons on cruisers is mostly dmg distance drop off... keeping a cruiser in >3k range is obviously more of a pain.

Single cannons are only higher dmg then beams at less then 3k distance to target... just fyi when your using em.
What are you talking about? I got beams and torpedos in the rear of my Cruiser. Single cannons i don't recommend on cruisers unless you flying a Dreadnought with a good Engine. My Dread can forwas ver fast to close distances but turning is an issue. On escorst the can close the distance and turn fase so single cannons won't hender them.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 141
# 37
02-11-2013, 05:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by p2wsucks View Post
For single Aux2Batt builds, Aux2Damp does fit in the middle of it's cycle. 10 secondsx2 = 20 which is less than the Aux2batt cooldown.
I'll take your word on it; I'm not that familiar with Aux2Batt builds.

That and some of your comments about running a single APO do highlight another problem -- there are way too many ways to reduce cooldowns. That's part of what contributes to defense being broken.

Aux2Damp doesn't stop you from being immobilized anyway though. It's good for PSW and tricobalts, but those don't stop you from moving. If you get stunned you might be able to tank through the damage on the strength of whatever buffs you had up, but if you get immobilized then your defense goes negative and the damage you take is greatly increased.
Quote:
PH sharing the same slot w/HE, TSS, and TB makes it harder for an escort to use and easier for Sci oriented ships to use. Also, you left out PSW and TBR are counters for TBs, the primary movement/defense debuff.
TBR doesn't counter TBs, it just pushes them out of range. PSW does break them though. Neither of them have an uptime that can be compared to APO though.

Sci oriented ships still don't get a lot of slots that can be used for PH. The LTC and CDR slots are used for offensive powers, meaning that science ships have 4 LT and ensign slots compared to 2 or 3 on an escort. While they could use PH, they also have TB, HE, TSS, and ST competing. At least one copy each of HE, TSS, and ST is virtually mandatory.Generally speaking, an escort can slip in a copy of PH just as easily, but they just don't need to.

Science Vessels and Cruisers typically use their ensign and LT slots the exact same way escorts do.

You're also ignoring the fact that the uptime on APO makes it so escorts just don't need to use engineering or science slots to counter movement debuffs. While APO isn't up all the time, it's up enough that EM and/or an engine battery can be used to escape. Since other ships don't have that APO shield, they are likely to need to use EM earlier, so they are more likely to get caught while it's on cooldown.
Quote:
APO issues aren't from people running dual copies there's an opportunity cost and all APO versions, ie APO1 and APO3, aren't equal. APO issues primarily come from cooldowns allowing just 1 APO to be run as 2, openning up other Boff slots or even getting away w/just 1 Tac Boff depending on the ship and still maintaining 2x APO. The other issue w/APO is the apparently broken defense bonus lasting more than 15sec.
APO doesn't have an opportunity cost in the sense that the engineer and science powers do.

Cruisers only role is healing, but if they use Aux2Damp they lose Aux2SIF -- they need to chose between movement and healing.

Science Vessels are for control, debuffing, and healing -- while PH doesn't lock out their primary powers, it does use a slot that could be used for something that helps the ship's role.

Escorts are for DPS. APO increases DPS in addition to providing protection from movement debuffs. Only escorts have access to a defense that also helps them fill their role.
Quote:
Even w/APO's movement debuff counter, if the defense was fixed the target could still be hit w/TSSE much more easily. Human Boffs have hurt the other movement debuff via engine power (VM).
Everybody carries engine batteries. I run TSSE on my science ship (a second copy in addition to the integrated one), and it almost never immobilizes an escort for any appreciable time because they can hold off on using their engine batteries. WIth the long cooldown on TSSE and the disable being a proc chance, they'll usually have their batteries back before it procs a second time.

I usually find cruisers to be the easiest ships to immobilize. Because of their poor turn rates they rarely run at full speed, so between 2xTSSE, GW, and the TBs from my Vesta's runabouts, they'll eventually get stuck. They might get out once, but I can keep trying other things on them. Speed alone can get an escort through quite a bit, and APO pops up like clockwork, so there are only narrow windows in which they might get immobilized to begin with.
Quote:
Pressure damage is an issue, but it's an issue across the board. It's not realated to defense, but mostly the Fleet shields, Rep system passives, and Embassy console repairs.
This is true, and it's possible that if pressure damage became relevant again, the higher mobility of escorts wouldn't be such an overwhelming advantage.

The fact that escorts can generally tank as well as other ships (not counting zombie builds that sacrifice their team role in favor of tanking) makes their superior mobility imbalanced. I remember when escorts had to hit and run to function, but for the most part that's gone away.

So now the higher mobility just means that they don't take the same penalties to defense as other ships.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,465
# 38
02-11-2013, 06:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by inktomi19 View Post
I'll take your word on it; I'm not that familiar with Aux2Batt builds.

That and some of your comments about running a single APO do highlight another problem -- there are way too many ways to reduce cooldowns. That's part of what contributes to defense being broken.

Aux2Damp doesn't stop you from being immobilized anyway though. It's good for PSW and tricobalts, but those don't stop you from moving. If you get stunned you might be able to tank through the damage on the strength of whatever buffs you had up, but if you get immobilized then your defense goes negative and the damage you take is greatly increased.
TBR doesn't counter TBs, it just pushes them out of range. PSW does break them though. Neither of them have an uptime that can be compared to APO though.

Sci oriented ships still don't get a lot of slots that can be used for PH. The LTC and CDR slots are used for offensive powers, meaning that science ships have 4 LT and ensign slots compared to 2 or 3 on an escort. While they could use PH, they also have TB, HE, TSS, and ST competing. At least one copy each of HE, TSS, and ST is virtually mandatory.Generally speaking, an escort can slip in a copy of PH just as easily, but they just don't need to.

Science Vessels and Cruisers typically use their ensign and LT slots the exact same way escorts do.

You're also ignoring the fact that the uptime on APO makes it so escorts just don't need to use engineering or science slots to counter movement debuffs. While APO isn't up all the time, it's up enough that EM and/or an engine battery can be used to escape. Since other ships don't have that APO shield, they are likely to need to use EM earlier, so they are more likely to get caught while it's on cooldown.
APO doesn't have an opportunity cost in the sense that the engineer and science powers do.

Cruisers only role is healing, but if they use Aux2Damp they lose Aux2SIF -- they need to chose between movement and healing.

Science Vessels are for control, debuffing, and healing -- while PH doesn't lock out their primary powers, it does use a slot that could be used for something that helps the ship's role.

Escorts are for DPS. APO increases DPS in addition to providing protection from movement debuffs. Only escorts have access to a defense that also helps them fill their role.


Everybody carries engine batteries. I run TSSE on my science ship (a second copy in addition to the integrated one), and it almost never immobilizes an escort for any appreciable time because they can hold off on using their engine batteries. WIth the long cooldown on TSSE and the disable being a proc chance, they'll usually have their batteries back before it procs a second time.

I usually find cruisers to be the easiest ships to immobilize. Because of their poor turn rates they rarely run at full speed, so between 2xTSSE, GW, and the TBs from my Vesta's runabouts, they'll eventually get stuck. They might get out once, but I can keep trying other things on them. Speed alone can get an escort through quite a bit, and APO pops up like clockwork, so there are only narrow windows in which they might get immobilized to begin with.
This is true, and it's possible that if pressure damage became relevant again, the higher mobility of escorts wouldn't be such an overwhelming advantage.

The fact that escorts can generally tank as well as other ships (not counting zombie builds that sacrifice their team role in favor of tanking) makes their superior mobility imbalanced. I remember when escorts had to hit and run to function, but for the most part that's gone away.

So now the higher mobility just means that they don't take the same penalties to defense as other ships.
I've mentioned Boff cooldown reducing Doffs are an issue in other posts and agree it's an issue. I don't think it's limited to Escorts nor benefits them more than other ship types significantly. Even w/the cooldowns there are windows in APO uptime. Also, if/when the defense duration is fixed it will allow for an even larger window.

The global on TBR and PSW is 30 seconds fyi. While longer than TB cooldown (as low as 3 seconds depending on the TB being used) they can help.

On my Tac KDF Vet ship I use all 3 Teams, 2eptx, and HE, and batteries to counter debuffs. It's a hybrid ship so it's more capable of doing this than most escorts. I use these counters, so I can run. This is w/a cooldown reduced APO.

APO isn't the death immunity some are making it out to be. TSSE of a high enough tier that hits will hurt even if it doesn't shut engines down. This is move effective when used/chained w/VM and other system debuffs and drains. Also, TSSx don't have a long cooldown unless your talking about Sci ship 1s. TSSE ability cooldowns are far less then Eng battery cooldowns and should be chained w/other disables like VM anyways.

Cruisers who have Aux2damp don't lose Aux2Sif, they just can't chain it as often if they trigger Aux2damp. Aux2damp gives stun immunity, and since stuns are what interrupts ES it can be a life saver vs teams w/heavy interrupts. Imo, this is worth losing an Aux2Sif cycle here and there.

Aux2damp has movement buffs which can aid to soft counter Tbs w/high engine power.

TBR is a counter to TBs, pushing people out range is effective you even acknowledge it does this.

When I want to I can break TB holds w/a Voquv (hardly an algile ship) this is w/o a PH or TBR in it's base build (not that I wouldn't swap them in if match called for it). Hint one of the things I do is move to a max speed preset. Tbh, I'd prefer people spam me when I'm flying that rather than Tac allies, so I eat as much dps and debuffing as a can before flying defensively. I'm guessing most support cruiser fly the same way.

Personally, I'd drop the GW for a PSW (interrupts evasives/ES) or VM (drop multiple systems if not clear) or SS (lengthen cooldowns) depending on what Doffs you have. You could also use PSWTorp console (though it's broken atm). Use the PSW/PSWTorp to strip the evasives. I'd use cront torps/mines if you aren't using them as well. For an escort debuffing Sci build anyway.
Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 3,672
# 39
02-11-2013, 09:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by alexindcobra View Post
What are you talking about? I got beams and torpedos in the rear of my Cruiser. Single cannons i don't recommend on cruisers unless you flying a Dreadnought with a good Engine. My Dread can forwas ver fast to close distances but turning is an issue. On escorst the can close the distance and turn fase so single cannons won't hender them.
My mistake guess I miss read you... you where talking about cannons then mentioned rear mounted cruiser weaponry.

I won't beat the issue with you... but if your in a ship that CAN turn like all the escorts do why would you gimp your damage by running anything other then DHC... unless you are just a terrible pilot. (I don't mean that to be offensive)... with all the movment buffs we have now I have no issues keeping my DHC on target 80+% of the time... Singles cannons would be a massive downgrade in overall damage potential for most people.
When the messenger comes to appropriate your profits ... kill the messenger.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 141
# 40
02-12-2013, 02:49 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by p2wsucks View Post

Personally, I'd drop the GW for a PSW (interrupts evasives/ES) or VM (drop multiple systems if not clear) or SS (lengthen cooldowns) depending on what Doffs you have. You could also use PSWTorp console (though it's broken atm). Use the PSW/PSWTorp to strip the evasives. I'd use cront torps/mines if you aren't using them as well. For an escort debuffing Sci build anyway.
I've been having good luck running PSW and GW together. Generally I'll hit someone with the GW, then use PSW to stun them and knock them back into it when they get out. On a Vesta, EWP can be added into the combo, and EWP together with GW does enough hull damage to kill most ships.

It's hard to make it work against escorts because the PSW and EWP rely on outmaneuvering the target. Cruisers and carriers are far and away the easiest to trap. TSSE works better on them too, because they tend to be running lower engine power to begin with (though not always) so even if the disable doesn't proc they are still nearly immobilized.
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