Rihannsu
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,705
# 131
02-12-2013, 12:54 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by naz4 View Post
To ask for a 2 tier system to cater for a minority is financially unfeasable. So based on that, your request would fall on death ears.
agreed
Quote:
Originally Posted by naz4 View Post
Why tone down ANY type of damage be it spike or sustained? To me both should be as viable as each other or else you will see matches run for hours on end between 2 competing teams and trust me, I don't want it to be like that. Been in too many of them.
agreed
Quote:
Originally Posted by naz4 View Post
As for the healing, the more you nerf it, the less viable you will make the engi even if this mythical FAW is fixed. What role will the engi play then? Healing on a personal level seems very balanced at this point in time. Its the passives you need to address be it from shields or traits. That's what is going out of control.
yeah you lost me here buddy. WHat do you mean by healing is fine on a personal level??

if pressure is not viable vis a vis burst, and we want both to be viable. We need it buffed either directly, or indirectly (by nerfing random healing).

As for balance, I think the eng class has suffered long and hard enough. It needs some action to become viable in pvp.

Healing objectives in PvE will never happen, but maybe the tank approach can work there, wouldn't really know. STO never has managed to include even minor healing objectives in any scenario
Joined 06.10
PvP 2010-2011
PvP 2012-2013
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,263
# 132
02-12-2013, 02:06 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ivantomdisplay View Post
U cant stop the evolution. I don't see the need for this game to be what used to be. Its totally different game then last year, last two years. Its time to let go, and play with what u got.
It seems to me that it is evolving into a very clear niche, however...

A game of two extremes - infinite healing/resistances vs infinite damage/debuff.

I suppose it may be a classic example of power creep. Each season brings new items, new abilities, new features that add something to either side. Add, not replace.
We didn't get new Bridge Officer skills. We get consoles with powers.
We didn't get new item modifiers. We got Duty Officers. Shields with more mods and special abilities. Reputation abilities.

All that adds to the two extremes. This would overall be a very fragile balance, if it would be balance at all, and bad o nits own right. But it's even more limited - everyone can get access to the infinite healing/resistance part, but only a few can get the infinite damage/debuff part.

Evolution is not a perfect process. As long as things work, the work. When they stop working, they die off.
STO might be the way of the Panda Bear. Highly specialized on eating bamboo, which is great, until bamboo becomes a spare resource. Better hope you find a mutated Panda Bear that likes something else.

---

SNB has always been the great "equalizer" - no matter how powerful your buffs are, SNB takes them away.

But an equalizer is not the same as a balancer. The more buffs exist, and the more important buffs are, the more important SNB got. Lowering the power of defensive (and offense) buffs would do the game good, I think. But it will probably lead to its own challenges - for example, when buffs are not as strong as they used to be, coordinated fire will be the "big buff". You will still need to carefully balance team healing abilities so they can counter team work reasonably well. And you will have to ensure that the base hit points of hull and shields are high enough so that combat doesn't go too fast in a 5v5 where 5 are always focusing on 1.

Last edited by mustrumridcully0; 02-12-2013 at 02:15 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 522
# 133
02-12-2013, 05:32 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by tripwire690 View Post
Okay. Last week we went over this. Without changing any power levels an escort captain in a breen ship in a private match with me was able to get 40 or 50 turn with no consoles when omega was up. when omega was down he was able to go slightly below the turn of omega. Now when I say slightly below I mean it was negligible. Like not even a 5 point difference with no significant increase to auxiliary power when using auxiliary power to the inertial dampeners.
Pffft.... what a disappointment. Being able to keep a high rate of turn is not the same as being able to keep your nose pointed at your opponent 100% of time, especially with ever popular tractor and EWP builds out there. You made it sound like you had a build that was immune to holds all the time. You might wanna consider a more careful wording to your statement in the future.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,340
# 134
02-12-2013, 05:44 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by havam View Post
agreed

agreed

yeah you lost me here buddy. WHat do you mean by healing is fine on a personal level??

if pressure is not viable vis a vis burst, and we want both to be viable. We need it buffed either directly, or indirectly (by nerfing random healing).

As for balance, I think the eng class has suffered long and hard enough. It needs some action to become viable in pvp.

Healing objectives in PvE will never happen, but maybe the tank approach can work there, wouldn't really know. STO never has managed to include even minor healing objectives in any scenario
I meant my personal opinion - if setup right you can burst heal or sustain heal
aka NazHuggyBear2

"No, there is no real problem with P2W in STO. Obviously, if you fight against someone with an equal level of skill in the game, better equipment will give you an edge. But usually, it is the skill level that determines the outcome, not the P2W." - Sprinkles
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 13,300
# 135
02-12-2013, 05:56 AM
I posted this in another thread, in a different fashion mind you, but I'll repeat the gist of it here:

A the end of an engagement, all ship types would have done the same overall damage.

Escorts would have high spike damage, but they would need to withdraw or risk being destroyed. While destroyed, they're not doing any damage.

Cruisers would have high survivability, allowing them to stay in the fight and their pressure damage to add up.

Science Vessels would have a bag of tricks - while they're damage and survivability would be the lowest, through the skillful application of debuffs, buffs, and self-healing - they would be able to match damage at the end of an engagement.

But they introduced magic wand healing. Escorts no longer had to withdraw. Science Vessels could focus more on being offensive. Cruisers were best at magic wand healing.

But they introduced layer upon layer of additional survivability, self-healing, etc, etc, etc. Escorts got tankier and tankier. Science Vessels needed to focus more on trying to offset the magic wand healing and additional layers of survivability. Cruisers were best left at home.

Were Cryptic to do away with magic wand healing and the bloated additional survivability, spike damage would still work best for that finishing shot - for delivering that killing blow - but pressure damage would matter - it's how you would get to the point of trying to deliver that killing blow.

Pressure Damage then Spike Damage.

...not...

Bill Nye Dirty Bag o' Tricks then Spike Damage.
Vice Admiral Geist, Klingon Science Officer
I.S.S. Arcadia, Stargazer-class Mirror Universe Heavy Cruiser
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,400
# 136
02-12-2013, 06:07 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by webdeath View Post
First off, I'm just going to be the better man and disregard what ever you were trying to continue to do in that first quote of my posts. This thread needs constructive feedback, not flame wars and troll attempts.

Here is our first exchange on the topic.


Quote:
Originally Posted by webdeath
Reduce Spike Damage.
Now Hold on! Before you grab the pitch forks look at the next point. Also, realize, that some where between Pre-F2P and Post-F2P Cannon Damage/Dual Heavy Cannon Damage might have gotten an unexpected boost which could explain why Dual Heavy Cannons are now the Go to weapons.

Here's my response.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ussultimatum
They are the "go to" weapons, simply because the bar for resistance and healing has been raised so high most other forms of damage have been drowned out already.

DHCs are still performing, but the base level they have to break through has also been raised.

Even then in some cases raw 4xDHCs x2 Escorts can still quite literally bounce off of targets.

Here is your "be the better man" response.


Quote:
Originally Posted by webdeath
I'm not one normally to say something like this.. but honestly.. I think I need to..

L2R



So let's sum up shall we?


1) Your first post claims a nebulous "unexpected boosts" for DHC/DC as "the go to weapons."

2) I tell you directly that the issue is not with DHCs/DCs, the issue is that pressure damage has been drowned out by passive resists and healing.


3) You tell me to learn to read, and then follow that with trying to re-write the thread and claim I'm the one not providing constructive feedback, in favor of flaming/trolling.

Commander
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 366
# 137
02-12-2013, 06:07 AM
Kinda like this. Yesterday I had a "brilliant" C&H with two eng/cruisers and usless tac/escort. We were not able to kill a lone escort. Magic healing was taking care of all the damage we could deal.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,192
# 138
02-12-2013, 06:11 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by zarathos1978 View Post
Kinda like this. Yesterday I had a "brilliant" C&H with two eng/cruisers and usless tac/escort. We were not able to kill a lone escort. Magic healing was taking care of all the damage we could deal.
What's so special about this ? be glad those two engineers werent AFK !
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 13,300
# 139
02-12-2013, 06:15 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by zarathos1978 View Post
Kinda like this. Yesterday I had a "brilliant" C&H with two eng/cruisers and usless tac/escort. We were not able to kill a lone escort. Magic healing was taking care of all the damage we could deal.
I had a CnH last week where my Eng in his beam Chel Grett was being healed by two Tacs in their cannon Ambasadors. Was trippy...but there was no problem in killing anything. We still lost the CnH though, typical folks off having fun fighting while a single guy from one side caps nodes.
Vice Admiral Geist, Klingon Science Officer
I.S.S. Arcadia, Stargazer-class Mirror Universe Heavy Cruiser
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,400
# 140
02-12-2013, 06:41 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by virusdancer View Post
A the end of an engagement, all ship types would have done the same overall damage.
Why?

Why should ships that are clearly healers or healer/controllers, or healer/pressure damage get to do the same overall damage as ships that have one singular purpose?


Quote:
Originally Posted by virusdancer View Post
Escorts would have high spike damage, but they would need to withdraw or risk being destroyed. While destroyed, they're not doing any damage.
Without healing, this is the case now.

Unless you are talking strictly about teams where no one is focus firing?




Quote:
Originally Posted by virusdancer View Post
Cruisers would have high survivability, allowing them to stay in the fight and their pressure damage to add up.
They have high survivability, they used to have viable pressure damage.

Here are the main issues for them as far as I can see:

> FAW ACC bug (fix in the works)
> Hybrid Sci capable ships infiltrating their healer role (Wells, Vesta, Recluse)
> Energy consumption (although fixing this in favor of 8 beams means edging Engineers furthter out of the power management niche that has all but evaporated).
> Current attainable passive healing and resists.



Quote:
Originally Posted by virusdancer View Post
Science Vessels would have a bag of tricks - while they're damage and survivability would be the lowest, through the skillful application of debuffs, buffs, and self-healing - they would be able to match damage at the end of an engagement.


1) Some sci ships can actually do this, not all builds or players are created equal though.

2) Why should a ship (class, generally speaking) that can buff, debuff, self-heal and control the enemy also be able to do as much overall damage as a ship class that has damage as its singular purpose?

But they introduced magic wand healing. Escorts no longer had to withdraw. Science Vessels could focus more on being offensive. Cruisers were best at magic wand healing.





I don't disagree that pressure damage deserves a seat at the table, but I think for that pressure damage to really be competitive with spike damage you should be required to focus most of your ship towards dealing it.


If you've focused very heavily on healing or debuffs, then I don't see why your overall damage output should be comparable to a ship that can't do any of those things (passive healing and resists notwithstanding, I'm talking about dedicated healing and buffing active use powers like ST3, TSS2/3, ES2/3, Aux to SIF 2/3, etc.)


Last edited by ussultimatum; 02-12-2013 at 06:43 AM.
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