Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,101
# 251
02-12-2013, 12:45 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by s7ike View Post
Personally, i like the mirror patrol consoles better... that's just me. And on a side note any good Jem'Hadar Attack Ship pilot can hop in any old escort and beat the qq'rs to begin with. For instance i took my mirror patrol in a couple games several days ago...i got nearly the most damage and the most healing out of 5-6 escorts in the game from both teams. You dont need a jemmy to do damage..all you need is a escort, point it and shoot.
Nevertheless with the amount of time some people spend playing you can easily buy the ship for yourself...or better yet pick up the mirror patrol it uses the same boff layout as 90 percent of the Jem pilots do.
I REALLY have to question that assertion, as there ARE Jem pilots here who insist that it's not OP because they get beaten...in the JHAS.

Seems to me that, all other stats and such being equal, a JHAS should be mopping the floor with every other escort out there (along with cruisers, sci ships, raiders etc.) just on the base of the thing's basic stats, including high impulse mod, 5 tac consoles, BOP maneuverability and Cruiser shielding (along with the Uni stations it also carries).

So here's what I see-if I'm killing a Jem bug by using my Bird of Prey, that Bug-driver would be dead meat in a Bird of Prey, or a Raptor, or any of the Fedscorts.

If I'm getting CLOSE to killing him, then he's probably not skilled enough to fly anything with lesser stats-maybe as a result of having the enormous crutch of a ship that is significantly OP from the get-go.

IF he's not taking down two or more in a pass, or if he's having trouble taking me or another BoP driver out, then he'd be pretty helpless in anything else.

It's only when a Bug Driver's taking down OTHER bug drivers on a regular basis, that I'm inclined to believe he's as good as he thinks he is.

See, I see it as the problem of the Bitchin' Camaro-(or the Ferrari driver)-probably not competent to make a run in anything LESS perfect, and I've seen this with certan former fleetmates-the same person who actively avoids PvP in a Raptor or BoP, yet fails to outperforme someone as mediocre as myself. The gear doesn't make you good, it just makes it easy-and easy doesn't make you any better.

The Jem'bug is an EASY MODE ship, as such it weakens your skills when you use it too extensively because 'Everything is easy with a Bugship."

But as I continue to maintain-dont' nerf it. What it needs, is competitors so that that 'easy mode' condition no longer persists, and a true "Elite" position matching the rhetoric can actually be obtained.
"when you're out of Birds of Prey, you're out of ships."

Look into Vanilla PvP if you're tired of the endless pursuit of grind, utterly unbalanced selections of geardo-inspired traits, and generally unbalanced and careless 'development' made mostly to turn this game into a second job.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 141
# 252
02-12-2013, 03:55 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by thegrimcorsair View Post
As a Vesta owner, I wouldn't mind it too much, TBH. The amount of CC the ship can field through pets lets it vastly exceed the capabilities of other Sci ships. The day they improve or strengthen Science powers, they'll start to more fully eclipse other Sci ships in their primary role than they already do.
I like my Vesta, but I feel the same --the pets are a bit much since the Vesta doesn't sacrifice anything for them. Even without them it's a powerful ship. Basically the only thing making the Vesta okay is that science vessels in general are crappy right now.
Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 585
# 253
02-12-2013, 04:32 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by inktomi19 View Post
I like my Vesta, but I feel the same --the pets are a bit much since the Vesta doesn't sacrifice anything for them. Even without them it's a powerful ship. Basically the only thing making the Vesta okay is that science vessels in general are crappy right now.
It pretty much boils down to whether or not you want pets and DHC's (Vesta) or top-flight turn rate and survivability (Wells), and then you start looking at the other Sci ships if either of those aren't appealing or in the budget.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,192
# 254
02-12-2013, 04:39 AM
I find the "i have spend money, so they can't nerf it argument flawed". I have spend hundreds of dollars for former C-Store ships, all of them now being obsolete, mainly thanks to trash-box ships, such as the abominable bug.

In case of Nebula, the tachyon grid console originally provided sensor buff that affected many more powers except for useless sensors resist now. But it was changed (see nerfed) with the skill revamp.

So dear maximus614 It already happened before, so cut the drama. Eventually there will be ships that make your precious bug obsolete, and when it happens, remember me and "enjoy" the feeling of "I have spend money, but Cryptic no longer cares".
Career Officer
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 522
# 255
02-12-2013, 06:45 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dalnar83 View Post
So dear maximus614 It already happened before, so cut the drama. Eventually there will be ships that make your precious bug obsolete, and when it happens, remember me and "enjoy" the feeling of "I have spend money, but Cryptic no longer cares".
With what I've observed, it seems like he'd be the first person to get the new OP ship and you'd be the first to whine about it being even more better than your previously obsoleted ships.


Personally, the gaps between Recluse and the Wells for their respective roles is substantially larger than the gap between the bug and the rest of the escorts.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,400
# 256
02-12-2013, 07:16 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by inktomi19 View Post
I like my Vesta, but I feel the same --the pets are a bit much since the Vesta doesn't sacrifice anything for them. Even without them it's a powerful ship. Basically the only thing making the Vesta okay is that science vessels in general are crappy right now.

What makes the Vesta (and the Wells) a great ship is the Ltc Uni.

The Wells does it better, with a stronger shield mod, better hull, the most amazing turn rate on any Sci ship and the ability to go full on healing through uni boff stations and an incredibly powerful console.

The sum of those abilities far outweigh the advantages the Vesta has with regards to (Aux) DHCs, Pets and multiple toy consoles (although I'm a big fan of Fermion Field).


(I'm not saying you were wrong anywhere, just reinforcing that the issue with lockbox ships is not limited to the JHAS.)

Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 585
# 257
02-12-2013, 08:00 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ussultimatum View Post
What makes the Vesta (and the Wells) a great ship is the Ltc Uni.

The Wells does it better, with a stronger shield mod, better hull, the most amazing turn rate on any Sci ship and the ability to go full on healing through uni boff stations and an incredibly powerful console.

The sum of those abilities far outweigh the advantages the Vesta has with regards to (Aux) DHCs, Pets and multiple toy consoles (although I'm a big fan of Fermion Field).


(I'm not saying you were wrong anywhere, just reinforcing that the issue with lockbox ships is not limited to the JHAS.)
The Wells has Turn Rate, Shield Mod (1.45, best of all ships in STO), and base hull as an edge over the Vesta.

LTC+LT Uni vs LTC+ENS unit leads to different, but similarly useful bridge officer arrangements, a wash for the most part, IME.

The Vesta has the edge firepower (can load cannons), the potential to field more powerful sci skills (5 Sci console arrangement), and has an expanded arsenal of science powers which are, for better or worse, agnostic of its console arrangement care of its pets. It's probably the only C-Store ship that could be argued to be on the same plain in terms of mechanical capability as its lockbox brethren.

Now what would be better is if they gave the Wells the Hull it *should* have to offset that monster shield capacity and turn rate... say around 18k base.

[EDIT]

If the above seems nonsensical, just chalk it up to too much coffee and not enough sleep, then carry on with QQ'ing or not QQ"ing about the JHAS as you see fit.

Last edited by thegrimcorsair; 02-12-2013 at 08:03 AM.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 120
# 258
02-12-2013, 08:34 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dalnar83 View Post
I find the "i have spend money, so they can't nerf it argument flawed". I have spend hundreds of dollars for former C-Store ships, all of them now being obsolete, mainly thanks to trash-box ships, such as the abominable bug.

In case of Nebula, the tachyon grid console originally provided sensor buff that affected many more powers except for useless sensors resist now. But it was changed (see nerfed) with the skill revamp.

So dear maximus614 It already happened before, so cut the drama. Eventually there will be ships that make your precious bug obsolete, and when it happens, remember me and "enjoy" the feeling of "I have spend money, but Cryptic no longer cares".


If they bring better ships out so be it,,,this is the same analogy with cars,,,they WILL make a better car each and every year,,,but dont come and take MY car that i worked for and downgrade it then give it back, you understand now?
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 952
# 259
02-12-2013, 09:00 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by playhard88 View Post
I'm getting a litte tired about this topic, so lets made some points clear. This ship need a balance is right, but not as hard as all the QQ are screaming

I will quote one of the qq'ers post for make this easy:



The Jem'hadar attack ship is the only special ship that don't have any unique console/weapon/Ability (galor, d'kora, tholian orb, tholian recluse, temporal ships, etc...all of them have something "special"), so what can they add to the ship for make it interesting? stats.

1 - Yes, is right, defiant have 17 and jemmy have 20. But defiant have the cloacking ability, jem'hadar have no speciall ability. Maybe 18-19 is a good turn rate value for balance, 1 point of BASE TURN rate is a huge diference for and escort

2 - Irrelevant, we all know that escorts survialbly depends 100% on shield tanking and speed, a litle more of hull is totaly irrelevant, that won't make u "OP".

3 - Yes but other escort can (and should) stack 2 o 3 Field generator consoles, in the end the jem'hadar is the escort with less shield in the game.

4 - So? There are plenty of ships in this game with 1 or 2 Universal boffs, and 99% of the jemhadar captians use the same layout as the fleet patrol escort. I see no problem here.

5 - Defiant have 5 too (plus can use the cloack for an deadly alpha strike), and i don't see anybody crying about that.

And what about the wells? is better than any other sci ship in the game and i don't see the QQ Army talking about it.

There are more important issues with pvp balance, so please stop the flood in the balance topics so we can keep them clean as posible
All escorts are op'd, regardless of which type. For their size, speed, and manuverability, they should not be able to take the damage they do. And in the case of the cloakable ships, get rid of that combat cloak ability. Its its bad enough these things move faster than any other ship, and do more damage. They should not have the ability to run away whenever they choose.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 105
# 260
02-12-2013, 11:24 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by patrickngo View Post
I REALLY have to question that assertion, as there ARE Jem pilots here who insist that it's not OP because they get beaten...in the JHAS.

Seems to me that, all other stats and such being equal, a JHAS should be mopping the floor with every other escort out there (along with cruisers, sci ships, raiders etc.) just on the base of the thing's basic stats, including high impulse mod, 5 tac consoles, BOP maneuverability and Cruiser shielding (along with the Uni stations it also carries).

So here's what I see-if I'm killing a Jem bug by using my Bird of Prey, that Bug-driver would be dead meat in a Bird of Prey, or a Raptor, or any of the Fedscorts.

If I'm getting CLOSE to killing him, then he's probably not skilled enough to fly anything with lesser stats-maybe as a result of having the enormous crutch of a ship that is significantly OP from the get-go.

IF he's not taking down two or more in a pass, or if he's having trouble taking me or another BoP driver out, then he'd be pretty helpless in anything else.

It's only when a Bug Driver's taking down OTHER bug drivers on a regular basis, that I'm inclined to believe he's as good as he thinks he is.

See, I see it as the problem of the Bitchin' Camaro-(or the Ferrari driver)-probably not competent to make a run in anything LESS perfect, and I've seen this with certan former fleetmates-the same person who actively avoids PvP in a Raptor or BoP, yet fails to outperforme someone as mediocre as myself. The gear doesn't make you good, it just makes it easy-and easy doesn't make you any better.

The Jem'bug is an EASY MODE ship, as such it weakens your skills when you use it too extensively because 'Everything is easy with a Bugship."

But as I continue to maintain-dont' nerf it. What it needs, is competitors so that that 'easy mode' condition no longer persists, and a true "Elite" position matching the rhetoric can actually be obtained.
I think your using some false logic to back up your argument.
Firstly-That fifth tac console means absolutely nothing to your dps...and most "Pilots" will tell you that.
Secondly-If your "almost" bringing down a bug with your bop, then you're either a spike bop or a person that is simply better than that bug pilot. I wouldn't make the assumption that you "almost" killed him in a bug that you'd definitely kill him in any other ship.
Sure the ship gives you an edge, ships in this game are like consoles, even though they may be the same "tier" they have different values of worth to individuals.
But in all honesty i haven't seen a non spike bop take out a good escort pilot in a while... without help at least.
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