Rihannsu
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,502
# 141
02-12-2013, 07:02 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ussultimatum View Post
Here is our first exchange on the topic.





Here's my response.




Here is your "be the better man" response.







So let's sum up shall we?


1) Your first post claims a nebulous "unexpected boosts" for DHC/DC as "the go to weapons."

2) I tell you directly that the issue is not with DHCs/DCs, the issue is that pressure damage has been drowned out by passive resists and healing.


3) You tell me to learn to read, and then follow that with trying to re-write the thread and claim I'm the one not providing constructive feedback, in favor of flaming/trolling.
Your not flaming and trolling ME? Your not going OUT of your way to Critique me right here.. right now and in your previous posts that started all this? Really? Then how should I be taking this?

Forget it, if this is how you wish to respond, and the type of responses you've decided to give, and where your focus is, this will be my last response to you. Go find another person to troll.
You think that your beta test was bad?
Think about this:
American Football has been in open beta for 144 years. ~Kotaku
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 12,697
# 142
02-12-2013, 07:07 AM
edit: I'm not going to get involved in the obvious trolling that is taking place in this thread by responding.
Maal, Klingon, Mogh - Vegar, Orion, Marauder - R'ebel, Romulan, Haakona
Willard the Rat, Reman, F.T'varo - Rave, J.Trill, Kar'Fi - Mysk, Gorn, Varanus
Kopor, Nausicaan, Guramba - Nivuh, Ferasan, B'rel - Venit, Lethean, M.Qin

Last edited by virusdancer; 02-12-2013 at 07:21 AM.
Ensign
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 29
# 143
02-12-2013, 07:10 AM
how do you start a new thread?
Boldly going where I have never been before.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 114
# 144
02-12-2013, 07:21 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by webdeath View Post
First off, I'm just going to be the better man and disregard what ever you were trying to continue to do in that first quote of my posts. This thread needs constructive feedback, not flame wars and troll attempts.

Second: You say Damage hasn't changed?

I recall where originally you had to not only skill into 3 skills, but they changed it so that Skilling 9 Points previously, is only skilling 6 points today.

Also, we have 2 Escort class ships that can use 5 Damage consoles.

Getting more Damage for 2 skills, And now 2 ships that have 5 Damage consoles equals more damage then before. And this improved Spike damage the most, because that was already high and now it's just higher.

Your right, Heals haven't been much different. They are some what higher thanks to that same Skill change, where instead of having to skill between two or three skills you maybe have to skill one and 6 Points in that one skill is the same as what 9 points used to be in the others.

How ever that is where things stop being the same.

There are now more Abilities that add to healing. Whether it's a passive effect from the Borg set. Healing proc effects from Fleet Consoles. Or bolstering and healing effects from Reputations, healing is quite nearly out of control.

Those two factors is what has turned the game from moderately balanced, into the Spike vs Super heals we have today. Yes, healing was out of control in the past, but never to the level it is now. Making it almost necessary to bring spike damage, because Pressure Damage has been completely negated thanks to the increased amount of healing.


I tend to agree with this my job as a tac with high DPS is to swoop in and finish off a target that has been pressure damaged or messed up with sci buffs, anymore now you can have 1-3 people hammering a ship and it takes forever to kill it and this is just unrealistic. I have no problem with any of the 3 classes being able to tank for at least a bit for survival but its gotten out of hand i went 1 on 1 in my bug against one of the breen ships people got in Qs wonderland,,,i won 5-1 however it took insanely long amounts of time for me to finally kill this guy, i would sub jump him with 4 offense buffs running and rapid fire,,get him down to 20 % with just a couple volleys then he would get away and heal quickly and i had to start all over again and keep chasing him and finally get lucky and hit my buffs while his were on CD,,,i have ran into escorts that can heal and tank like crazy too which i dont agree with and im a tac, i also dont think eng/sci should be able to tank as much as they do,,,i mean honestly in the arena who goes after a large tank ship? We all target the escorts then if a tanker if left we focus fire on them,,,if you focus them first it takes half or more of your team on one person leaving the escorts open to sneak up behind you and blast you.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 141
# 145
02-12-2013, 12:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ussultimatum View Post
I don't disagree that pressure damage deserves a seat at the table, but I think for that pressure damage to really be competitive with spike damage you should be required to focus most of your ship towards dealing it.
I kind of agree, though even ships that aren't focused on damage out to be able to contribute some.

Escorts aren't the best healers or tanks, but if they use 4 or 5 ensign and LT sci and engineering powers on tanking and healing abilities they can do well enough to mostly protect themselves, even if they don't use any consoles to increase the effectiveness of those BOff powers, and run at minimum power to shields and aux. They can even spare some healing for team-mates if they aren't taking fire.

A cruiser or science ship which is not focused on DPS, still ought to be able to DPS as well as an escort can tank or heal -- it shouldn't be much, but it ought to make a noticeable difference occasionally.

The problem is that 6 beams can't scratch most PvP players under any conditions, and 8 might do some damage, but the drain will mean they can't fire at full power most of the time. And nothing less than 125 power is going to do any damage at all.

The other part of the problem is that even if an cruiser or science vessel wants to focus on DPS, they get little if anything out of it.

Cruisers

Engineering has a lot of powers that are in theory offensive, but in practice the only one which adds noticeable damage is EWP. DEM really needs cannons and tactical buffs to do any noticeable damage, boarding party is still not very useful for PvP, and Aceton Beam doesn't have a noticeable effect. EWP is fine -- it's a great power, but a cruiser cannot function as sustained DPS with EWP alone.

DEM should be a good candidate for helping sustained DPS, but it just doesn't do enough. Since it's damage is per pulse, it works best when combined with cannons and CRF. If buffing it would increase it's effectiveness with cannons too much, then maybe it should be beam-only

Consoles are another problem -- no engineering consoles increase DPS on anything. The Weapon power and EPS consoles used to (and used to be virtually required for anyone wanting to do damage) but ever since the power system was reworked they don't do much of anything.

EWP and Aceton Beam can have their damage increased by science consoles, but otherwise Cruisers get their damage the same way escorts do. This means that you need to assume the only console a cruiser has buffing it's damage are the tactical ones.

Basically cruisers just can't be specced to do sustained damage right now. They have a lot of consoles and powers which used to increase damage, or were supposed to help damage but never did, but for the most part those are just wasted investments.


Science Vessels

In some ways they are not as bad off as cruisers, and in some ways they are worse.

All of the science powers need to be reviewed. Most of them work, but aren't very reliable. I'd say that as a general rule, "damage" powers should get a little more focus since they are generally easier to deal with, and science vessels tend to lack damage no matter what they're doing.

The biggest weakness of Science Vessels when it comes to damage is that they realy on science powers which take Aux for most of their damage, but they need to use beams, and beams don't do any damage at less than 125 power.

After driving a Vesta a bit, I think that all science ships probably ought to use Aux for the weapon power. 3 DHCs at 125 power still isn't escort-level damage, but it does add up, and that has me convinced that having science ships flying around with 4-6 beams firing at 125 power all the time probably wouldn't be the end of the world.

I like my Intrepid too, but it just can't do damage the way the Vesta can. I mean, fighters laugh off beam arrays which are fired at <50 weapon power. The Vesta isn't overpowered or ready to replace real DPSers, it just has weapons that don't tickle. Science Vessels in general probably need that treatment.

Quote:
If you've focused very heavily on healing or debuffs, then I don't see why your overall damage output should be comparable to a ship that can't do any of those things (passive healing and resists notwithstanding, I'm talking about dedicated healing and buffing active use powers like ST3, TSS2/3, ES2/3, Aux to SIF 2/3, etc.)
I can kind of agree with you. But if a cruiser or science ship wants to focus on offense, they give up those things.

If they are using all their high-level powers defensively, then they just ought to be able to build up damage over time, which is currently not an option.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by pokersmith1 View Post
Pffft.... what a disappointment. Being able to keep a high rate of turn is not the same as being able to keep your nose pointed at your opponent 100% of time, especially with ever popular tractor and EWP builds out there. You made it sound like you had a build that was immune to holds all the time. You might wanna consider a more careful wording to your statement in the future.
Hmmm. No. I'm not wording my statement differently. And when did I ever say it was "my" build? Its obvious you still don't understand what I wrote. It's obvious that Hurley and mostly many other readers did. And if turning is not how you would keep the nose of your escort pointed at the target how else do you suppose to do that? If your escort does have a high degree of turn and you are still having trouble keeping your ship pointed at the target then I suggest you join one of the many excellent Escort Coaches at the next PvP Bootcamp. I'm sure they can help you with your ship.

-Captain Tripwire-

p.s.: Omega makes you immune to tractor beam and repulsors. (Not the damage just the negative/positive repel), eject warp plasma (the movement debuff not the burn) and photonic shockwave. Aux2dampeners makes you immune to negative repels and stuns only. Polarized hull makes you immune to movement debuffs such as tractor beam only. (Minus any changes to the skill I might not currently be aware of).

Let no other player discourage you from what you believe you can achieve in PvP. Though you may walk alone through looming shadows of doubt cast upon you by your enemies. Forge your heart with iron casting its shape out of only your pure will to push forward. You will not be denied eventually.

Last edited by tripwire690; 02-12-2013 at 01:03 PM.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 151
# 147 Hmmm...
02-12-2013, 01:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ussultimatum View Post
Here is our first exchange on the topic.





Here's my response.




Here is your "be the better man" response.







So let's sum up shall we?


1) Your first post claims a nebulous "unexpected boosts" for DHC/DC as "the go to weapons."

2) I tell you directly that the issue is not with DHCs/DCs, the issue is that pressure damage has been drowned out by passive resists and healing.


3) You tell me to learn to read, and then follow that with trying to re-write the thread and claim I'm the one not providing constructive feedback, in favor of flaming/trolling.
Sux you and webdeath got into it. I was following both of your responses. Anyways I dont quite agree with your statement in red. In my opinion we wont know if that is true until they actually "fix" pressure damage or in general the way beams deal their damage. Which is the primary way a science ship or cruiser will deal their damage. AND until they nerf tactical team down to five seconds. Part of the problem with healing right now is the time time spent in between healing with 10 seconds of 360 degree burst damage resistance courtesy of the superb shield distribution granted by Tactical Team. In my opinion when they address those things then we can see where healing is and we can make minor changes to heals and healing passives if necessary. Not before changes to damage or the resistance provided by Tactical Team but after.

-Captain Tripwire-

Let no other player discourage you from what you believe you can achieve in PvP. Though you may walk alone through looming shadows of doubt cast upon you by your enemies. Forge your heart with iron casting its shape out of only your pure will to push forward. You will not be denied eventually.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 522
# 148
02-12-2013, 01:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by tripwire690 View Post
Hmmm. No. I'm not wording my statement differently. And when did I ever say it was "my" build? Its obvious you still don't understand what I wrote. It's obvious that Hurley and mostly many other readers did. And if turning is not how you would keep the nose of your escort pointed at the target how else do you suppose to do that? If your escort does have a high degree of turn and you are still having trouble keeping your ship pointed at the target then I suggest you join one of the many excellent Escort Coaches at the next PvP Bootcamp. I'm sure they can help you with your ship.

-Captain Tripwire-

p.s.: Omega makes you immune to tractor beam and repulsors. (Not the damage just the negative/positive repel), eject warp plasma (the movement debuff not the burn) and photonic shockwave. Aux2dampeners makes you immune to negative repels and stuns only. Polarized hull makes you immune to movement debuffs such as tractor beam only. (Minus any changes to the skill I might not currently be aware of).
You would make one fine politician, my friend.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,033
# 149
02-12-2013, 01:51 PM
I think everyone is getting a little bit offtrack here.

The facts are pretty simple and easy to follow.

1) Every ship is flying around with 50% ish shield resistance.
2) Every ship is passively regenerating a crapton of shields thanks to high shield power that requires very little sacrifice to get.
3) Most ships have even more passive regen via either reputation, doffs, or gear.
4) Leadership has brought this issue to the hull


If a ship can go from 1% to 100% in thirty seconds roughly by itself pressure damage does not exist. Burst is the only option.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,400
# 150
02-12-2013, 02:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by inktomi19 View Post
I kind of agree, though even ships that aren't focused on damage out to be able to contribute some.
Oh, that I agree with absolutely.


Quote:
Originally Posted by inktomi19 View Post
Escorts aren't the best healers or tanks, but if they use 4 or 5 ensign and LT sci and engineering powers on tanking and healing abilities they can do well enough to mostly protect themselves, even if they don't use any consoles to increase the effectiveness of those BOff powers, and run at minimum power to shields and aux. They can even spare some healing for team-mates if they aren't taking fire.

A cruiser or science ship which is not focused on DPS, still ought to be able to DPS as well as an escort can tank or heal -- it shouldn't be much, but it ought to make a noticeable difference occasionally.
I think that's all reasonable.


Quote:
Originally Posted by inktomi19 View Post
Cruisers
Sorry for cutting your quote off, I do think that cruisers are lacking right now but the things they suffer aren't necessarily just a damage issue (imo).

I think it's honestly a thread in it's own right and goes beyond just the current pressure damage issue.



Quote:
Originally Posted by inktomi19 View Post
I can kind of agree with you. But if a cruiser or science ship wants to focus on offense, they give up those things.
I think if they are willing to give up those things for more offense, then yeah that should possibly be an option.


Quote:
Originally Posted by tripwire690 View Post
Sux you and webdeath got into it. I was following both of your responses.
You know what, I agree.

Here's what I can do about it.

Web, send me a tell @USS_Ultimatum to squash this, or just chat in general. No reason for us to have a lingering grudge over some forum topic - we're all in this thread because we want to see PvP be improved.


Quote:
Originally Posted by tripwire690 View Post
Anyways I dont quite agree with your statement in red. In my opinion we wont know if that is true until they actually "fix" pressure damage or in general the way beams deal their damage.

The reason I say it is because in some circumstances, even DHC level pressure is actually dead when used on it own.

Without a coordinated strike and chained SNBs, probably some burst damage - even DHCs are having issues.


I don't think any fix to faw is going to change this, it might even make it worse as faw primes your enemies fleet shields vs. your escort's bursts.


I wanted to give a better response, but I lost track of time and have to head off.

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