Lieutenant
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 94
# 191
02-12-2013, 04:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by squatsauce View Post
Yeah. I recently tried out a 5 turret/1 torpedo build on a sci ship and was surprised by how dramatically the rapid fire cannons skill upped the ship's DPS. A single lt. commander tac officer basically turns the ship into an omni-directional laser hose. Overall DPS was higher than when I used 5 beams instead and I got procs and criticals more often. I'm going to try this on a cruiser later today, but I'm pretty sure a six-turret/two torp setup on a cruiser's going to be pretty much the same.

When the weakest cannon in the game is far more useful in general than any beam weapon, there is a problem.
really? and you parsed this?

becaus from my parsing in my jem'hadar dreadnought - 7 turrets, 4k dps. 6 turrets + 180 torpedo - 4.1k dps. 6 turrets and regular fleet mk xii quantum torp - 4.1k dps. 7 turrets and 2 torps - 3.8k dps

6 beams+180 torp - 5.08k dps. 3 dhc, 3 turret, 1 torp - 5.4k dps


i used the foundry mission 'battleship 1 on 1' for all of the parsing. this is a mission that keeps you in battle for 15-20 minutes straight and only has you fighting one target at a time, no aoe cheesing

and even if tehre WERE aoe cheesing, the 360 degree nature of beam fire at will > cannon rapid fire with just turrets.

anecdotal evidence is bad.
Survivor of Remus
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 359
# 192
02-12-2013, 04:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dixa1 View Post
really? and you parsed this?

becaus from my parsing in my jem'hadar dreadnought - 7 turrets, 4k dps. 6 turrets + 180 torpedo - 4.1k dps. 6 turrets and regular fleet mk xii quantum torp - 4.1k dps. 7 turrets and 2 torps - 3.8k dps

6 beams+180 torp - 5.08k dps. 3 dhc, 3 turret, 1 torp - 5.4k dps


i used the foundry mission 'battleship 1 on 1' for all of the parsing. this is a mission that keeps you in battle for 15-20 minutes straight and only has you fighting one target at a time, no aoe cheesing

and even if tehre WERE aoe cheesing, the 360 degree nature of beam fire at will > cannon rapid fire with just turrets.

anecdotal evidence is bad.
No. I didn't parse it. Instead, I simply timed how long it took me, on average, to kill a battleship one on one with the build I was using. Not quite the same, but far from anecdotal. Average engagement time dropped from 35 to 24 seconds.
Lieutenant
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 94
# 193
02-12-2013, 05:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by squatsauce View Post
No. I didn't parse it. Instead, I simply timed how long it took me, on average, to kill a battleship one on one with the build I was using. Not quite the same, but far from anecdotal. Average engagement time dropped from 35 to 24 seconds.
and you timed this how exactly?

i would believe you, due to the fact taht both weapons have a 1s activation but the beams draw 2 more power per activation that the dps was the same but to say that turrets were flat out better may have more to do wtih your driving. i'm guessing that you routinely rotate so that the front or rear 90 of your ship cna fire a torpedo. if this is the case then many times you have only your front or rear beams hitting your target

if you had one of the 180 degree torps you would not need to do anytihng but straight broadside - allowing full beams + torp to hit your target 100% of the time. yes the 180 torp is lower dmg than a standard torp or the omega torps, but i just did 8k on ise with the build with - again - only tier 1 in omega and romulan rep right now as i just came back to the game and rolled a new character.

Last edited by dixa1; 02-12-2013 at 05:18 PM.
Survivor of Remus
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 359
# 194
02-12-2013, 06:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dixa1 View Post
and you timed this how exactly?
With a stop watch. Not as fancy as a DPS parser, but pretty reliable technology.



Quote:
Originally Posted by dixa1 View Post
i would believe you, due to the fact taht both weapons have a 1s activation but the beams draw 2 more power per activation that the dps was the same but to say that turrets were flat out better may have more to do wtih your driving. i'm guessing that you routinely rotate so that the front or rear 90 of your ship cna fire a torpedo. if this is the case then many times you have only your front or rear beams hitting your target
I did not say they were flat out better. I said that they were far more useful. They can maintain a constant DPS no matter the ship's facing and benefit from the punchier cannon tac skills. The boosted rate of fire they benefit from also means they can potentially make more critical hits and trigger more procs. Your mention of maneuvering only reinforces my point: I can carefully maneuver a ponderous cruiser around in order to maintain my 6 beams slightly higher base DPS against a target and rely on a combination of engineering skills, maneuvering patterns, and tac team to boost DPS, or I can simply be within 10 km and constantly cycle tac team 1/cannon rapid fire and do nearly as much damage with little to no effort on my part. Furthermore, I can pretty do that boosted damage pretty much constantly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dixa1 View Post
if you had one of the 180 degree torps you would not need to do anytihng but straight broadside - allowing full beams + torp to hit your target 100% of the time. yes the 180 torp is lower dmg than a standard torp or the omega torps, but i just did 8k on ise with the build with - again - only tier 1 in omega and romulan rep right now as i just came back to the game and rolled a new character.
While certainly handy, your 2500 cryptic point torpedo weapon isn't relevant to the discussion. I am glad you're enjoying your new character, though, and hope you have a great time either way.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 143
# 195
02-12-2013, 07:07 PM
With three consoles, I can bring a DBB up to 1100-1200 DPS on a cruiser. I can make an array go from 700-1000 DPS. I suspect it is not the gear, but the tactics behind it and the person trying to fit it that is the problem.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 537
# 196
02-12-2013, 10:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cptrichardson12 View Post
With three consoles, I can bring a DBB up to 1100-1200 DPS on a cruiser. I can make an array go from 700-1000 DPS. I suspect it is not the gear, but the tactics behind it and the person trying to fit it that is the problem.

Yes, captain genius, we all know you can buff beams to have, nominally decent damage. What you have chosen to ignore is the fact that the weapons will cripple themselves via massive powerdrain. + The deisganted beam ships have little in ways to modify and buff the weaposn they are desiganted to use. All beam skills are lakcluster AND locked away in the TAC tree.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 509
# 197
02-13-2013, 06:05 AM
Everything that makes a engineering captain is UP his ship his weapons his career skills ! Eng bof skills can use anyone efficiently tac and sci, what bring the question what makes a eng cruiser captain a tanker? He is no better tanker that a sci captain btw sci have even better bof tanking skills"PH, TSS, HE and why do they have them they are no tanks" And the damage from beam arrays and torp is not noticable in most cases, and why its because we have bug tanks and thick shield sci. So why bother you can see almost no eng in a cruiser in pvp space that doesnt pop like popcorn in the first 30 sec, maybe if he uses RSP that will give few exciting seconds. So much for the balance the cruiser ships from the ST series are myths for our cruisers they just share the same look! btw I have all three career on my account so I know
Lieutenant
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 94
# 198
02-13-2013, 12:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by squatsauce View Post
With a stop watch. Not as fancy as a DPS parser, but pretty reliable technology.





I did not say they were flat out better. I said that they were far more useful. They can maintain a constant DPS no matter the ship's facing and benefit from the punchier cannon tac skills. The boosted rate of fire they benefit from also means they can potentially make more critical hits and trigger more procs. Your mention of maneuvering only reinforces my point: I can carefully maneuver a ponderous cruiser around in order to maintain my 6 beams slightly higher base DPS against a target and rely on a combination of engineering skills, maneuvering patterns, and tac team to boost DPS, or I can simply be within 10 km and constantly cycle tac team 1/cannon rapid fire and do nearly as much damage with little to no effort on my part. Furthermore, I can pretty do that boosted damage pretty much constantly.



While certainly handy, your 2500 cryptic point torpedo weapon isn't relevant to the discussion. I am glad you're enjoying your new character, though, and hope you have a great time either way.

beams slightly higher base dps?

beams are about 40-50% higher base dps than a turret. on my ship with 4 blue mk xii consoles and 125 weapon power turrets are just under 700 dps, beams are well over 1k. that's on the mouseover.

and i've parsed 7 turrets, 6 turrets and a torpedo, 5 turrets and 2 torpedos, 5 beams and a torp and 6 beams with a torp. which which two were the highest? it wasn't the turrets.

fact is that turrets have larger damage drop off from what i'm seeing, and they do less damage per proc. the dmg listed on the romulan consoles on my beams is 71 dmg. on turrets it. 0.03 dmg. that's not a typo and bears out in the parse.

my 2500 point cryptic torpedo came with the assault cruiser refit, which does dps nearly on par with my jem'hadar dread but with substantially more survivability - again with beams.

parse your results. anecdotes and your 'stopwatch' do not count due to rng.

Last edited by dixa1; 02-13-2013 at 12:43 PM.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,605
# 199
02-13-2013, 01:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by squatsauce View Post
With a stop watch. Not as fancy as a DPS parser, but pretty reliable technology.
Make that 102 uses for a stopwatch. YOUR 101 USES ARE ARCHAIC AND OUT-DATED!!!
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
Why the Devs can't make PvE content harder. <--- DR proved me wrong!
Survivor of Remus
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 359
# 200
02-13-2013, 04:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dixa1 View Post
beams slightly higher base dps?

beams are about 40-50% higher base dps than a turret. on my ship with 4 blue mk xii consoles and 125 weapon power turrets are just under 700 dps, beams are well over 1k. that's on the mouseover.

and i've parsed 7 turrets, 6 turrets and a torpedo, 5 turrets and 2 torpedos, 5 beams and a torp and 6 beams with a torp. which which two were the highest? it wasn't the turrets.

fact is that turrets have larger damage drop off from what i'm seeing, and they do less damage per proc. the dmg listed on the romulan consoles on my beams is 71 dmg. on turrets it. 0.03 dmg. that's not a typo and bears out in the parse.

my 2500 point cryptic torpedo came with the assault cruiser refit, which does dps nearly on par with my jem'hadar dread but with substantially more survivability - again with beams.

parse your results. anecdotes and your 'stopwatch' do not count due to rng.
I understand the desire to eliminate "anecdotal" evidence from the conversation, but you must understand that quoting your DPS numbers without any context or methodology description is very much anecdotal evidence itself.

So, let me break this down for you using science. All values presented are estimated sustaned DSP derived from the Starship Weapons Calculator 4.0:

All things being equal and before taking into account any skill-based or weapon-based variables, and assuming a starting power level of 100 and a distance of 2 km:

6 vanilla mk xi turrets will do approximately 1440 DPS no matter what direction a ship is facing.

6 vanilla mk xi beam arrays will do approximately 1579 dps on a broadside and 1112 DPS in the fore and aft firing arcs.

Under ideal circumstances, the beams do approximately 10%more damage. Under less-than-ideal circumstances, they do 23% less.

Now, let's talking about adding in skills:

6 vanilla mk xi turrets + Cannon Rapid Fire 1 + Tac Team 1 = 1984 DPS @ 1 target
6 vanilla mk xi beam arrays + Beam Fire at Will 1 + Tac Team 1 = 2006 DPS broadside, 1412 fore and aft.

Under ideal circumstances, beams will deal 1% more DPS, under less than ideal circumstances, they deal 15% less.

Things change the further out you go, of course, but the overall damage for turrets continues to be between the ideal and less-than-ideal values for beams and the boost from Cannon Rapid Fire effectively brings it up to par with BFAW at all ranges against single targets.

Simple math. In most cases, turrets are preferable to a similar number of beam arrays in situations where you cannot maintain ideal DPS for more than 50% of the engagement.
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