Survivor of Romulus
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,408
# 41
02-12-2013, 03:46 PM
I think they will, but it'll be on their timetable, not ours. I mean, just because the Foundry is my priority as a user, I don't automatically expect it to be theirs as developers. I have that in my own business. I get lots of people telling me what my priority should be, all based on what they want. I have to look at the big picture and decide where to put my limited resources, same as Cryptic.

It may well be that we'll get more development time after Neverwinter gets released and the Foundry team is freed up to work on STO again. Then again it may not, depending on where Cryptic decides to put their resources. I would hope they choose to put some more time into the STO Foundry, but its their choice to make. For now though I think we're seeing positive movement. Zero has been checking some of the little things off the list, like TOS consoles and separating Jem Hadar and Cardassian space mobs, and Frost has been doing great work in bug troubleshooting. Even baby steps are forward motion.
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Rihannsu
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,471
# 42
02-13-2013, 12:00 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by typhoncal View Post
If we take your position as is, then it seems that those that have or are responsible for working on the foundry are not capable of dealing with such an over complex system. If making updates as you have suggest have the result of massive problems, it is apparent that Cryptic doesn't have the programmers that can handle such a complex system. Is that what you are implying? As for the rest, you seem to be making excuses and nothing substantial to imply otherwise. I look forward to you response.
I don't really appreciate being told I am making excuses. You asked a question, I answered using facts and the reality of the situation. If you don't believe me and take them as excuses rather than argue the points then I have no desire to hold a conversation with you.

use the information in whatever way you wish. good day.

House of Cards - Lvl 46 Fed mission

Last edited by captainrevo1; 02-13-2013 at 06:19 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 629
# 43
02-13-2013, 07:54 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by castsbugc View Post
The unfortunate answer is, noone has been given the time and or resources to do this, there has always been 'something more important or better to devote resources to.'

It takes time to make things ready for the Foundry, apparently alot based on the number of 'hooks' that have to be attached to each item to be usable. The rough number we have is something on the order of 4 hours per item, with a possibility of longer lengths for certain objects.

Maybe, MAYBE one day, we will be deemed an asset enough to devote resources towards in any level that would get our catalog caught up...but I do not see this as something that will occur soon, even if the number of Cryptic employees have increased, because so far...noones doing this.
It would be nice if Cryptic's asset development people would stop forgetting that the foundry exists and make it a point to build foundry combatibility into their design of the core elements, that way there is no need to devote extra time later to go back and convert it.

As I understand it, they very much want to tie the Foundry into the entire asset library, but right now it is too expensive to do so. Not expensive in terms of money, but in how many human resources it would take to do it in a timely manner.

Bottom line: STO has had the foundry for some time now. It was touted as one of the big features of the game. And yet there has been so little effort to support it, even with new assets that have been added since Foundry went live. That is poor management in my opinion. And as much as Dan wants to see Foundry able to access everything, it ain't going to happen until he as the project director MAKES it happen.

Sadly, the only thing that will really make retro-active conversions of resources viable would be for it to be indirectly monetized by adding unlocks on the Dilithium store. Like mission content, Cryptic has flat-out said that they will not charge ZEN for foundry assets. However, Dilithium is availabe just by playing the game requiring no monetary costs to obtain it, though money can be spent on ZEN for the purpose of purchasing Dilithium on the exchange.

Nothing without potential for profit will be prioritized by this team. So if we really want to see a lot of the things we claim to need or want, we need to set our hat to the fact that it will have to somehow, directly or indirectly, factor into their profit margin in a positive way. Otherwise it will be a drain on human resources and therefore will not happen.

I'm fine with that.

Look how much money a model railroader spends on that hobby. Nobody but family and friends will likely ever see his work, and yet he devotes thousands of dollars and years of his time and an entire room of his house to painstakingly building his vision. He can buy a starter kit and get a train engine, a few boxcars and enough track to create a circular path. And essentially, even after years of expanding upon his vision, that's really all it still is. A train that goes round and round a track. But all the fancy switch tracks, control mechanisms, model buildings, trees, plaster mountains with a tunnel through them, upper and lower tracks that can be switched between and run independently, it is a feat of engineering that one can take pride in. But no part of it was free. It cost both time and money.

I see Foundry as the model railroad of the MMO universe. We get the starter kit (everything that is in it now) and can do a ton of cool things with it. But as our vision expands into more creative directions, it is not unfair to consider purchasing assets on the Dilithium store.

I would even be willing to purchase a C-store item that grants the player the use of hub architecture for their missions. Essentially allowing players to go back and forth between maps for a wide variety of storytelling applications.

Foundry assets are currently given the same back-burner level of treatment as official mission content In the face of lockbox items and grindfest mechanics. Neither are monetized. Neither are profitable in and of themselves. Neither are prioritized. Neither are produced. The purpose of business is to make money. So naturally, only practices with a price tag attached are a focus. It's just the nature of the beast.

We need to be willing to open our wallet for stuff that goes above and beyond the basics. We need to demand the ability to do so. We need to give them a reason to devote resources to the things we want. And no. Saying "give it to us or else we quit" is not a good enough reason. Truth be told, in a game where all money spent is optional, odds are that most of those who would say that aren't spending any money as it is. And those who are will each be replaced by two or three newcomers who will.

No we need to show them that we are willing to spend money on what we want. Figure on at least $15 a pop for every foundry asset pack, and propose a list of assets you want to see in a pack that you would be willing to spend $15 on. If it gets enough support in the community, then Cryptic should take it from there and run with it. They would know about how many unit sales they would need in a given time interval to justify assigning someone to the task of building the asset pack.

We need to be WILLING to meet Cryptic/PWE on these terms if we ever can hope to expect to see a lot of what we want get added. We need to stop expecting total freebies.

A subscription grants us only what the Terms and the gold side of the features matrix say they grants us. Content is not covered. When we agreed to the terms, we agreed to be bound by them anytime we log into the game or its related services. They entitle us to nothing beyond access.

Cryptic:
I'd rather be charged for stuff I want than just not get it at all, considering the fact that I do not have to be a subscriber anymore to play the game. If you want to stick to their guns and not charge Zen for content (missions or foundry assets) then fine. Charge Dilithium and leave it to us how we wish to obtain that Dilithium. But dammit, give yourselves an avenue for potential profit, allocate someone to delivering what your customers want, and actually deliver what your customers want. If they really want it, and you are reasonable with your pricing, they will buy it. And if you keep producing, people will keep buying.

That is a proven fact.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
There are many problems with STO that only the Devs can fix. And they should...
At the same time, there are many problems that we are perfectly capable of fixing ourselves. And we should...
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Lieutenant
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 43
# 44
02-13-2013, 08:08 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sirsitsalot View Post
Sadly, the only thing that will really make retro-active conversions of resources viable would be for it to be indirectly monetized by adding unlocks on the Dilithium store. Like mission content, Cryptic has flat-out said that they will not charge ZEN for foundry assets. However, Dilithium is availabe just by playing the game requiring no monetary costs to obtain it, though money can be spent on ZEN for the purpose of purchasing Dilithium on the exchange.
I strongly disagree. Just by creating content, even if only played 5 or 10 times, Cryptic is making an indirect monetary return. Anyone who makes something in the Foundry is contributing to PWE's bottom line. Charging for assets and begging to pay for assets is foolish. For a user generated content system to work there cannot be barriers to creation.

STO in the unfortunate position, imo, of having been hastily and badly coded from its rushed inception, and trying to turn that ship of code around is a monumental task. So their process is slow and people are impatient... so what else is new. Be creative with what there is and be glad that they have people working on it instead of abandoning it to maintenance mode.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 629
# 45
02-13-2013, 08:57 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by izdubar2 View Post
I strongly disagree. Just by creating content, even if only played 5 or 10 times, Cryptic is making an indirect monetary return. Anyone who makes something in the Foundry is contributing to PWE's bottom line. Charging for assets and begging to pay for assets is foolish. For a user generated content system to work there cannot be barriers to creation.
But there IS no barrier to creation. Just limited assets. Foundry authors have proven the ability to produce astounding missions with limited resources. But still, there is a difference between being able to improvise with existing elements and actually having the exact element you want. For example, I'd like to have the option of creating a hostage situation theme at the New Romulus Embassy. Not having the actual New Romulus Embassy maps available makes that kind of hard, but not impossible. I would not mind paying a one time price of $15 to unlock a Tau Dewa Sector Foundry Pack that grants the Tau Dewa sector block as a door cluster for foundry missions, space maps included with it, as well as all ground maps including the KDF and UFP version of the New Romulus Embassy.

Think of it like the sourcebooks available for Pen and Paper RPGs like Dungeons and Dragons. They contain specific information for running campaigns in specific settings. Nothing stops a dungeonmaster from making stuff up for those settings, but most dedicated DMs will at least buy the source books as an official reference. And really, that's sort of what foundry mission authoring is like.

Quote:
STO in the unfortunate position, imo, of having been hastily and badly coded from its rushed inception, and trying to turn that ship of code around is a monumental task. So their process is slow and people are impatient... so what else is new. Be creative with what there is and be glad that they have people working on it instead of abandoning it to maintenance mode.
Believe me. I do agree with this. The REAL problem is that the Foundry system runs separate from the core game systems. Remember when they added the Utopia Planitia map to the Foundry, and there were parts of it that weren't working right, namely the Ship Hologram projacetion that showed a slideshow of the ships belionging to players who were actially in the instance. In the foundry version, it loaded all the holograms at once.

The Foundry is a system built on top of the core syestem, so there are bound to be inconsistancies. If Cryptic is doing their job right over in Neverwinter, the foundry is a fully integrated element with the core system, and so what gets added to one automatically is available in the other. And if their art team is doing its job right, anything they design to be compatible with the core game will also be compatible with the Foundry.

But over here on STO, as I understand it, the separation of Core and Foundry creates a whole extra process involved with cross-compatibility of assets. A process that will need to be offset with a potential profit model in order to get it prioritized. Fine. If that is what it takes, then do it. Charge for asset packs. Those who outright refuse to pay a dime for anything in this game won't have to. It would be their choice if they wish to remain limited to only the core assets.

Right now, the only thing they monetize is stuff I don't want badly enough that I would spend my own money on it. I don't spend my own money on FLUFF. But sell me content I can play and assets I can actually use to create my own content, and I'll pay for them.

I understand that some won't. But those who will will add to the game's profitability, and things that thus far have taken the back seat to other more directly profitable elements may be in a higher priority slot.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
There are many problems with STO that only the Devs can fix. And they should...
At the same time, there are many problems that we are perfectly capable of fixing ourselves. And we should...
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Survivor of Romulus
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,408
# 46
02-13-2013, 09:03 AM
Quote:
In the foundry version, it loaded all the holograms at once.
I begged them to keep that. No dice.

Long live the Thundercougarfalconbird!
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Community Moderator
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,657
# 47
02-13-2013, 09:53 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sirsitsalot View Post
I would not mind paying a one time price of $15 to unlock a Tau Dewa Sector Foundry Pack that grants the Tau Dewa sector block as a door cluster for foundry missions, space maps included with it, as well as all ground maps including the KDF and UFP version of the New Romulus Embassy.
Here's how Jack Emmert explains it, and I'm paraphrasing here heavily because I'm far too lazy to go look up the quote.

Let's say there's an author out there that has come up with an idea for a Tau Dewa sector mission, and it's going to be the greatest Tau Dewa sector mission ever made. Everybody is going to love this mission. But, he doesn't want to spend $15 to make this mission. He doesn't have a lot of money, he's just got a great idea and the ability to carry it through. It would be a tragedy if that mission never got made solely because Cryptic wanted $15 for him to make it. Cryptic would get a lot more benefit out of that mission than out of $15.

UGC is different than anything else in the game. Everything else, the players are consumers; only in the Foundry are we PRODUCERS. We're giving Cryptic something very valuable; our time. They shouldn't charge us for giving them our time; every time they do, it just means at least one person won't give his time to them.
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Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 629
# 48
02-13-2013, 10:45 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by syberghost View Post
Here's how Jack Emmert explains it, and I'm paraphrasing here heavily because I'm far too lazy to go look up the quote.

Let's say there's an author out there that has come up with an idea for a Tau Dewa sector mission, and it's going to be the greatest Tau Dewa sector mission ever made. Everybody is going to love this mission. But, he doesn't want to spend $15 to make this mission. He doesn't have a lot of money, he's just got a great idea and the ability to carry it through. It would be a tragedy if that mission never got made solely because Cryptic wanted $15 for him to make it. Cryptic would get a lot more benefit out of that mission than out of $15.
If it is such a benefit to Cryptic, then don't charge for the asset pack. Just devote the employees to getting the assets into foundry. But the problem is, employees are not going to get allocated unless there's a MONETARY return on the HR investment. I know how it works. Cryptic has made it clear for three years now based on what makes money and what doesn't as to what gets prioritized and what doesn't.

So if Jack wants to back up his words which you paraphrased, then he can see to it that enough people are working to make sure that the foundry has everything it needs to accomplish the goal according to his viewpoint of it. Because right now, form the point of view of some of us, how he describes it is not how it is working.

As it is now, we cannot do a propper Tau Dewa foundry mission, at least nothing in conjunction with the the Season 7 locations because we don't have access to those assets. And unles the inclusion of them has some sort of profit model associated with it, God only knows when someone on the team will get around to finally adding it.

The beauty of it is that even if the asset pack is charged for, the person who doesn't want to (or cannot) pay for it can still create the mock-up content, using existing resources. use a "door" closest to the Tau Dewa sector block border. As you point out, he's got the great idea and the ability to carry it through. Nothing will stop him from doing it. It's what has put some of the finest Foundry authors where they are now. Improvization.

It's one thing though, to improvise for stuff that is not in the game at all. The problem is that foundry authors are required to improvise even when assets are already in the game, and there's no apparent effort on Cryptic's part to get it to them. So if foundry missions are indeed such a benefit to cryptic, then cryptic should dedicate some energy to supporting the foundry community by getting the asset library for foundry on par with what is there for the core game, and then KEEPING it on par.

I realize that the team is small. And in game development terms, 40 developers is small for even non-MMOs. For an MMO it is tiny. But that is not our problem. And yet we have to pay the price that is lack of official mission content, and lack of many of the assets we would really like to have to make our content so Cryptic can go on believing they don't have to.

There is a symbiosis between community and company that is not being respected. By either side. At least that is how I perceive it. That needs to change.

Quote:
UGC is different than anything else in the game. Everything else, the players are consumers; only in the Foundry are we PRODUCERS. We're giving Cryptic something very valuable; our time. They shouldn't charge us for giving them our time; every time they do, it just means at least one person won't give his time to them.
They would NOT be charging us for giving them our time. They would be charging us for a ONE TIME purchase to get asset packs that add to our potential creativity. If they really valued the foundry author's efforts to do what they are not willing to do, as in creating mission content, then they would reciprocate by keeping the foundry asset library on par. I really would rather they do this. But as far as I am concerned, if they must charge for it, then so be it.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
There are many problems with STO that only the Devs can fix. And they should...
At the same time, there are many problems that we are perfectly capable of fixing ourselves. And we should...
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rihannsu
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 10,499
# 49
02-13-2013, 10:47 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by drogyn1701 View Post
I begged them to keep that. No dice.

Long live the Thundercougarfalconbird!
don't worry, I saved a copy for you: http://marhawkman.deviantart.com/gal...2?_sid=82c2207

Long live the Thundercougarfalconbird!
HAIL HYDRA!
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I can haz joystick!
MMOs aren't charities. Corporations are supposed to make a profit. It's what they do.
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Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 366
# 50
02-13-2013, 11:11 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sirsitsalot View Post
If it is such a benefit to Cryptic, then don't charge for the asset pack. Just devote the employees to getting the assets into foundry. But the problem is, employees are not going to get allocated unless there's a MONETARY return on the HR investment. I know how it works. Cryptic has made it clear for three years now based on what makes money and what doesn't as to what gets prioritized and what doesn't.

So if Jack wants to back up his words which you paraphrased, then he can see to it that enough people are working to make sure that the foundry has everything it needs to accomplish the goal according to his viewpoint of it. Because right now, form the point of view of some of us, how he describes it is not how it is working.

As it is now, we cannot do a propper Tau Dewa foundry mission, at least nothing in conjunction with the the Season 7 locations because we don't have access to those assets. And unles the inclusion of them has some sort of profit model associated with it, God only knows when someone on the team will get around to finally adding it.

The beauty of it is that even if the asset pack is charged for, the person who doesn't want to (or cannot) pay for it can still create the mock-up content, using existing resources. use a "door" closest to the Tau Dewa sector block border. As you point out, he's got the great idea and the ability to carry it through. Nothing will stop him from doing it. It's what has put some of the finest Foundry authors where they are now. Improvization.

It's one thing though, to improvise for stuff that is not in the game at all. The problem is that foundry authors are required to improvise even when assets are already in the game, and there's no apparent effort on Cryptic's part to get it to them. So if foundry missions are indeed such a benefit to cryptic, then cryptic should dedicate some energy to supporting the foundry community by getting the asset library for foundry on par with what is there for the core game, and then KEEPING it on par.

I realize that the team is small. And in game development terms, 40 developers is small for even non-MMOs. For an MMO it is tiny. But that is not our problem. And yet we have to pay the price that is lack of official mission content, and lack of many of the assets we would really like to have to make our content so Cryptic can go on believing they don't have to.

There is a symbiosis between community and company that is not being respected. By either side. At least that is how I perceive it. That needs to change.



They would NOT be charging us for giving them our time. They would be charging us for a ONE TIME purchase to get asset packs that add to our potential creativity. If they really valued the foundry author's efforts to do what they are not willing to do, as in creating mission content, then they would reciprocate by keeping the foundry asset library on par. I really would rather they do this. But as far as I am concerned, if they must charge for it, then so be it.
The main reason they're not working on the Foundry is because they don't want all their work invalidated when they update to the new Foundry Neverwinter has.

And we are getting assets added to the game, just last month we got tholian mobs added to the Foundry, just remember that sorting the assets for our use in the Foundry might be a little more work than most people think.
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