Career Officer
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 556
A long time ago, I had a "What is constructive feedback? We need guidelines!" thread. Of course it never received a reply from Cryptic.

I think it is time for such an endeavour again.

What is the grand idea for PVP? In which direction is this game moving?


Obviously there is no timeframe for anything pvp-related. I don't like it, but I accept it. But it is extremely hard to give meaningful feedback if one never knows if Cryptic is even interested in certain types of feedback or if it is utterly useless for them since they have decided long ago to go into the exact opposite direction with the game.

Is pvp in this game supposed to become the standard MMO grind-heavy gear progression driven thing? Or is there any intention of going into an esports-like direction with a level playing field and attempts at truly balancing the game?


An example:

If we knew for certain that the game was headed for the big gear progression, we could stop providing feedback about balancing problems with new abilities and items and instead start lobbying for a special switch in private pvp matches (or maybe even a sepcial queue) that allows "plain pvp" / ClassicPVP as a built-in game mode.


If Cryptic want constructive feedback then they can help by providing some broad ideas for the future of this game and steer feedback in a useful direction.

So far it seems hard to discern what kind of feedback beyond "your latest addition is the best!" they actually want to hear. Taking almost a year for even acknowledging the FAW issue doesn't exactly say "we value feedback regarding problems in the game, especially if it is supported by tons of data".

Quote:
Originally Posted by mancom View Post
The complaints of the developers about a lack of constructive feedback from the pvp community and the response from said community that all their constructive feedback is being ignored leads me to conclude that Cryptic and the players don't have the same idea of what constructive feedback actually is.

The naive idea is probably that constructive feedback is something like this:
  1. Identify a problem
  2. Explain the problem
  3. (If possible) Explain the causes for the problem
  4. (If possible) Propose a solution to the problem / Explain what you expect from a fix
Maybe this is a description of necessary properties of constructive feedback (or maybe not), but this is most certainly not a sufficient condition for constructive feedback.

(Extreme) Example of feedback that adheres to this standard and is not regarded as constructive by Cryptic:
  1. Patches get released to the live server without proper testing.
  2. Feedback that is given on tribble regarding new patches does not prevent bugs from finding their way to the live server.
  3. The developers ignore feedback about obvious bugs and have done so repeatedly despite being told about this problem.
  4. Replace the current developers with better ones.

I think a major part of the problem is that Cryptic usually does not disclose what their goals and intentions are.

We simply do not know whether mechanical bugs are of any real importance to Cryptic. Abilties that have wrong values may be catastrophic in PVP, but maybe Cryptic simply doesn't care enough about things like FAW ignoring [Acc] modifiers to fix it in a matter of weeks and thus ignoring this issue is just a logical consequence of their internal priorities and not a failure to listen to what the PVPers perceive as constructive feedback. We simply don't know.

We don't know which solutions can be implemented by Cryptic. Historically, it seems that balance request are rarely adressed with more than a change to the cooldown of ability XYZ. So maybe proposing any solutions that go beyond cooldown or magnitude changes are impossible and thus not constructive? We simply don't know.


This lack of stated goals and intentions could also become a major problem for Gozer if he seeks constructive feedback (although maybe he will eventually put up a post that states these things). From what I have heard, he is only in control of the "outside of pvp", i.e. queue system, maps, game modes etc, but he has no control over the systems team and therefore does not have the power to address concerns about ability/ship balance beyond telling the systems team about it and hoping that they find a minute to squeeze his issues in. So maybe it is inherently not constructive to tell Gozer about bugged abilities and balance issue in general?


There is also one thing to keep in mind that is fairly specific to PVP-related feedback. Much of the PVE feedback is along the lines of "Wouldn't it be cool if Cryptic added XYZ so that we can do ABC?". Nobody expects Cryptic to add newly proposed systems / missions / content within a matter of days or weeks.
PVP feedback on the other hand is usually given on much more urgent issues. It's not about "Wouldn't a game mode XYZ be totally cool?" but usually about "You released another bugged ability! Please fix it asap! The game is almost unplayable.". Here it is important to know what the expected response time to pvp-critical bugs and balance issues is. Is it realistic to expect Cryptic to fix obvious bugs of one build in the next one that goes live? Is it even realistic to expect Cryptic to acknowledge reported bugs (and maybe even provide an approximate timeframe (days/weeks/months) for a fix)?


I feel that correctly communicating expectations and goals is at the core of encouraging constructive feedback. Just think about tribble testing of new seasons for a second. The tribble test weekend usually is perceived like this:

** lots of peple spend lots of hours on tribble -> people find lots of bugs -> cryptic pushes the build live without any changes

But I think it is fairly obvious that these tribble weekends are not intended to find bugs so that can be fixed before going live. They are meant to test whether the server crashes under heavy load. And once you keep that in mind, the testing usually goes like this:

** lots of people spend lots of hours on tribble -> the server does not crash -> cryptic pushes the build live, knowing that it is stable enough to have a chance to survive the load on the live server

And once you know about these expectations and goals, there is no reason to get particularly upset. The test weekend did what it was supposed to do: it ensured the stability of the build. And as an added bonus, it lead to many bug reports that may or may not be addressed in the distant future.
http://hilbertguide.com
Captain
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 661
# 2
02-14-2013, 01:55 AM
In my opinion I would say that Cryptic does aknowledge the fact there are bugs etc which needs to be cleaned up. But the problem which I think is the main reason is that Cryptic has their own ideals and goals for the game, and hence dont have the need or the time to focus on what the playerbase has to say. They have after all released content upon content through the various seasons with the intended goal to make profit from it. Time spent fixing bugs and unbalanced gear is simply too time consuming and costs alot, hence not worth doing in the immediate future. After all, there is money to be made!

So as I see it there is:

1. Lack of resources in the form of manpower and actual investment being poured into the game. After all, the only way to make a profit is to develope new consoles, ships, items etc, and when this is saturated its about time to make new ones. If there was sufficent resources, the devs would have more time to go through these bugs and actually balance existent content.

2. The existing developer team is doing one hell of a sloppy job balancing new content, and being so arrogant and not listening to the playerbase cause they are sitting on their high horse, and think they are correct 100% of the time. If this was not the case, how come the players playing this game are able to detect and contemplate good solutions to said bugs, when the games developers are not?


My 2 kroners.
Co-founder of The Spanish Inquisition TSI - Cause no one expects it!

PaxOttomana: gawd mirror event is like fighting a tsi premade, they keep comin and comin!
Rihannsu
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,532
# 3
02-14-2013, 05:37 AM
extrapolating from Gozers goodbye speech aka 4/6 weekly pvp updates. There is no plan. No one in charge means no plan.

Feedback is pointless, constructive or otherwise.

Is it may yet?
Joined 06.10
PvP 2010-2011
PvP 2012-2013
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,292
# 4
02-14-2013, 06:59 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by devorasx View Post
In my opinion I would say that Cryptic does aknowledge the fact there are bugs etc which needs to be cleaned up. But the problem which I think is the main reason is that Cryptic has their own ideals and goals for the game, and hence dont have the need or the time to focus on what the playerbase has to say. They have after all released content upon content through the various seasons with the intended goal to make profit from it. Time spent fixing bugs and unbalanced gear is simply too time consuming and costs alot, hence not worth doing in the immediate future. After all, there is money to be made!

So as I see it there is:

1. Lack of resources in the form of manpower and actual investment being poured into the game. After all, the only way to make a profit is to develope new consoles, ships, items etc, and when this is saturated its about time to make new ones. If there was sufficent resources, the devs would have more time to go through these bugs and actually balance existent content.

2. The existing developer team is doing one hell of a sloppy job balancing new content, and being so arrogant and not listening to the playerbase cause they are sitting on their high horse, and think they are correct 100% of the time. If this was not the case, how come the players playing this game are able to detect and contemplate good solutions to said bugs, when the games developers are not?


My 2 kroners.
Indeed they do seem to keep profiting no matter what they do, so why change? And we really can't ARGUE that. It is what it is.

And once again, because if I see a dead horse, at the very least I'm gonna kick it. Same with elephants on the sitting board. They also will receive rough treatment at my hands.

As you have, and as I'm sure others will as well, noted we aren't saying the Devs or anyone else involved in the game is less than intelligent. But even the brightest amongst them couldn't balance new content on a base that is fundamentally broken.

In other words, no amount of testing, tweaking, retesting and retweaking, will ever result in a balanced product coming out. Unless that product has NOTHING to do with combat. I'm sorry I'm in error. If it is simply a costume they are normally fine. Okay the newest costume does tend to clip your avatar when you play dress up, but I'm sure that will get fixed.

So if it has to do with combat, and it shoots at something, or something else shoots at it, or it changes those activities in any way, there is no way it can be balanced.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leaning_Tower_of_Pisa

Really a great story. And to think they actually built some of the higher floors crooked in an attempt to even things out. This means if they ever actually DO FIX the foundation.....um....hey guys....It's STILL LEANING!

Go to the root. Fix the foundation first. Don't worry about all the stuff above that. It CANNOT be fixed. Once the foundation is fixed, THEN you can address the rest. In fact, MANY of the issues in the game NOW will seem trivially easy to balance once the foundation is repaired.

EDIT: And yes, I know I'm a complete Knob, etc, etc. I would like to say that I really do enjoy and play other aspects of this game outside of PVP. Maybe not roleplaying on Drozana, but beam to my ready room after a match and we'll see. No seriously this is a very visually stunning game, the space combat is tops. I'll do PVE matches JUST to watch the space combat. There are many solid aspects of this game, and I accept this is just my feeling, but my feeling is that it's a shame to see potential go to waste due to an inability to address this. And we aren't talking "change the game engine" type of event. Just reallocate some resources that are already in the game.

Cheers!
If I don't respond to posts on this forum don't be offended. I don't sub or follow any of them.

Last edited by thissler; 02-14-2013 at 07:04 AM.
Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 421
# 5
02-14-2013, 07:05 AM
Keep fighting the good fight, guys.
__________________________________________
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,292
# 6
02-14-2013, 07:46 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevehale View Post
Keep fighting the good fight, guys.



"Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam"
If I don't respond to posts on this forum don't be offended. I don't sub or follow any of them.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,390
# 7
02-14-2013, 07:54 AM
I'd love to see even just a rough outline that answers some of Hilbert's questions from the dev team to get a clear idea of what they envision for PvP, what do they consider constructive feedback, and what do they want the playerbase to get out of PvP?
Captain
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 661
# 8
02-14-2013, 07:58 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by thissler View Post
"Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam"
Without checking google, i bet thats Cato the Elder`s expression about Carthage, that do note, he said every time he was done speaking to the senate.
Co-founder of The Spanish Inquisition TSI - Cause no one expects it!

PaxOttomana: gawd mirror event is like fighting a tsi premade, they keep comin and comin!
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 02:49 AM.