Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,015
# 71
02-14-2013, 11:05 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by marc8219 View Post
And don't forget the armitage with recall mode doffs. My bonus def in that ship cycles between 100 and 120 before using Omega or evasives. Not sure how todays patch affected it yet, but I think it is still high without the cycling.

So acc overflow won't help you when acc is actually needed against fast moving targets with max def bonus, and in situations where the overflow does kick in when his def bonus is down crit mods are more useful anyway from what I understand here.
I gave that a spin the other night and it was not like everything missed me. In fact while trying it I got the single hardest 1v1 beatdowns I've had since I got in the Jem HEC from 4monkeys, and I get a lot of beatdowns so that's saying something.

Still, I haven't parsed it with a buddy to see how the misses actually shake out.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ussultimatum View Post
How you post and treat others in your posts comes back to you.
Slow it down a second brother, I wasn't saying to refrain from giving him some lip. He can take it. You're ellipsising the entire point of my comment away.

Quote:
Originally Posted by redricky View Post
And guys, climb off of Thissler's back...
=/=
Quote:
Originally Posted by redricky View Post
And guys, climb off of Thissler's back for Kerrat and CnH, I use the same philosophy in arenas without a cloak. It doesn't invalidate his argument.
I'm not trying to protect his feelings. "You don't do Arenas" or "You only decloak-Alpha" dismisses his point unfairly. That's all.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,492
# 72
02-14-2013, 11:24 AM
Assuming only 25% of the damage gets through resistance and CritH hits trigger a ~2k/facing repair every 10 seconds or so and through TT and or piloting, then 8k= 1/4EHP, ie expect EHP 32k of shield repairs if you're critting at a decent rate. Let's assume 1k regen/6 seconds that's another EHP of 26k of shield regen over 10 seconds. Therefore, pressure damage needs to deal 5.8k raw damage/second to be effecitive at all in this situation and I haven't considered Sci repair console passive repair

In a team environment the threashold 5.8k/sec raw preasure damage (or more) isn't impossible to overcome, but I haven't talked bout the self/team repairs yet either. My point is PuGing w/a pressure build may/is kinda pointless, but in a team environment w/a a couple of AoE pressure damage ships and a couple of AoE debuffing ships and a hard spike damage ship there may still be a case for AoE pressure damage.

Imo, people should want ACC for pressure damage builds and/or high uptime high pressure damage builds. But, others should look @ Crit mods for their particular spike builds. I get that w/the effectiveness of pressure builds having dropped players just consider dropping Acc across the board.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,400
# 73
02-14-2013, 11:29 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by redricky View Post
I'm not trying to protect his feelings. "You don't do Arenas" or "You only decloak-Alpha" dismisses his point unfairly. That's all.

I think it's safe to say that the opinions of people who have parsed countless matches worth of arena logs were equally dismissed unfairly.


All of my logs show me performing better, not just "hitting more" with generally higher ACC and not with less.

Lieutenant
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 74
# 74
02-14-2013, 11:38 AM
virusdancer has a great point and I have issues trying to get this accross to pvp friends.


If you CC the target you dont need ACC weapons. They often say that CC is broken. That there are too many ways to break it now.

I dont agree. I often have a tractor and EWP and kill my target.

Broken, Shimmer and most on here are very good premade PVPers. I got mad respect. But I think the PVP community has it wrong and right.

If you all keep your ACC weapons and run your teams the way you do it will work. The problem is if someone changes thier tactics to counter thats when you will be stopped. The biggest issue I suspect is that most of the PVPers premade wise tend to have the same style of teams.

The question is, is this the best way overall to run a premade. Two sci\3 Tacs combo with ACC weapons ect....

Having this norm in pvp matches has made teams very good on what they do. They all practice the same way. I am curious though if someone got serious about forming a premade with CC invovled what would happen.

Either way CC works. It work on some..some other it doesnt. It all depends on the situation. I am successful with it most of the time and CrtH and CrtD weapons help.

What I usually here is your nerfing a team if you have EWP or a tractor.

You are if you are running those SYLE of teams. Form a team that can take advantage of CC and CrtH. Its obvious you would be successful.

Its sort of like a great wide reciever on a running team in football. If you never throw the ball and your star reciever is a poor blocker....you wont do well.

but if you change your offense...you could shock some people.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 13,675
# 75
02-14-2013, 11:46 AM
There's the extrapolation of the BoP Mega Alpha Gank...

...teams that chain Tractor/VM/SNB.

Pick a target, lock them down, and the ACC mod loses it's benefit.

If you've got at least 4-5 in Targeting, Accurate, or a single ACC mod - if you can hold them and strip buffs...you've eliminated their Elusive and 9 Maneuvers (if they've even got those). You're at 100% to hit or more.

So you take all the additional CrtH S7 gave along with all the CrtH that already existed - go with CrtH mods...pick the best weapon for CrtH...cannons...DHCs...and shred.

You're going to get more out of that than if you don't hold/strip the target while running ACC...much less anywhere near what little you'd get out of ACC on Arrays.

Spike.
Pressure.

Those defensive goodies from S7 aren't really going to help against the possible Spike...while they do a great job of making Pressure look even worse.

Am I wrong in this?

I mean, I actually conceded this point in a couple of threads to Thissler.


Fleet Admiral Geist, Klingon Science Officer
U.S.S. Arcadia, Benthan Assault Cruiser - U.S.S. Deogen, Phantom Intel Escort
U.S.S. Endless, Hazari Destroyer - U.S.S. Naked Sun, Hirogen Apex Battle Cruiser
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,015
# 76
02-14-2013, 11:57 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ussultimatum View Post
I think it's safe to say that the opinions of people who have parsed countless matches worth of arena logs were equally dismissed unfairly.


All of my logs show me performing better, not just "hitting more" with generally higher ACC and not with less.
/hugs.

We cool? I have respect for every brain in this thread. If there's somebody in this thread who hasn't vaped me in game I'm not aware of it. If I've ever given the impression to the contrary, the fault is mine.

Once before I had to restate Thissler's OP late in a thread, I'm going to take the liberty of doing so again because while I find his writing style and overstated thread titles delightful it seems to rile some people up and make them miss the point.

What do your (plural) logs show when you run with less Acc and only unload on held targets?

Because that's what Thissler is advocating. He's saying in the OP that Def can be stacked to outpace Acc, so don't bother trying to catch up, just remove Def instead.

I didn't hear him say to dump Acc and shoot at moving targets per usual.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,400
# 77
02-14-2013, 12:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by redricky View Post
/hugs.

We cool?
Absolutely.


Quote:
Originally Posted by redricky View Post
What do your (plural) logs show when you run with less Acc and only unload on held targets?
Speaking for myself, that's nearly impossible to answer because the logs don't track the other effects (or lack there of) on targets (such as being held), nor does it really track who was killed and when.


Quote:
Originally Posted by redricky View Post
Because that's what Thissler is advocating. He's saying in the OP that Def can be stacked to outpace Acc, so don't bother trying to catch up, just remove Def instead.

I didn't hear him say to dump Acc and shoot at moving targets per usual.

Outpacing DEF

I didn't hear him say that either, I just disagree with dumping your ACC entirely because you can't outpace DEF.

You don't need to outpace DEF, that's chasing an overflow bonus that exists for when you have ACC and the target has no DEF to ensure that you still at least get some benefit out of still having ACC.

What you do need, in general, from ACC is to close the gap as much as possible - a gap which is going to be variable based on how many controls your team has and how many ways to escape or ignore those controls your opponents have.



Removing DEF

Removing DEF means that player's ships will need to be redesigned to be more like the borg.

Giant hunks of hull that you just bash on for a very long time (because no one is ever missing).

This is exactly WHY ACC is pointless in PvE, it's even stated flat out by Gecko in the STOked video that introduced the ACC vs. DEF sheet.

Seeing a bunch of misses isn't "fun", but in order to make your NPCs be balanced around that, they need to be giant, typical, MMO Whale bosses (or they need to have mega-regen, mega-resistances or some combination of these 3 attributes).



On top of this, "remove defense" is also one of the many pointless trains of thought in this sub-forum because it presents one of the least likely things to happen in this game.

We're lucky to see a few tweaks here and there on existing powers and items, what are the chances the devs will literally scrap and re-write foundation level combat mechanics that primarily only affect pvp and on top of that one that the pvp community does not have a unified opinion on to begin with?


Last edited by ussultimatum; 02-14-2013 at 12:23 PM.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 13,675
# 78
02-14-2013, 12:24 PM
The remove Def was not about removing Defense from the game...it's about removing/reducing the amount of Defense the target has. You can't keep up with Def because of Acc - but you can hold/strip a target to reduce their Def where your limited Acc is more than enough that additional sources of Acc aren't needed.


Fleet Admiral Geist, Klingon Science Officer
U.S.S. Arcadia, Benthan Assault Cruiser - U.S.S. Deogen, Phantom Intel Escort
U.S.S. Endless, Hazari Destroyer - U.S.S. Naked Sun, Hirogen Apex Battle Cruiser
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,400
# 79
02-14-2013, 12:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by virusdancer View Post
The remove Def was not about removing Defense from the game...

Sorry I jumped off on a tangent there due to the previous "remove defense from the game" thread.

Saying you can "hold/strip" a target of defense gets back to what you and I brought up earlier - somethings are much easier in Ker'rat and CnH than they are in arenas with well built teams.

Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't - sometimes your team has holds/slows/immobs, sometimes they don't.

Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,252
# 80
02-14-2013, 12:38 PM
Thissler's my bud and he's a legend.

Everything he says, as humorous as it is - because I only know him to be a "brighter-side-of-life-kinda" guy, he speaks to the heart of the matter.
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