Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 522
# 81
02-14-2013, 01:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by virusdancer View Post
Pick a target, lock them down, and the ACC mod loses it's benefit.
Wait, is there some concept that I'm not quite grasping here, or are we operating under assumption that there is no accuracy overflow when acc > def? Afaik, access acc (thank you holds and engine disables!) IS crtd and crth so I'm not even really sure why this thread exists in the first place.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 12,464
# 82
02-14-2013, 02:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by pokersmith1 View Post
Wait, is there some concept that I'm not quite grasping here, or are we operating under assumption that there is no accuracy overflow when acc > def? Afaik, access acc (thank you holds and engine disables!) IS crtd and crth so I'm not even really sure why this thread exists in the first place.
Hrmm, I'm going to go with a target that's got both Elusive and 9 Maneuvers - nothing else. Sitting still then, they've got +10% Bonus Defense. The attacker will have Accurate and 9 Targeting - nothing else. Their base Bonus Accuracy before weapon mods is +25%.

If we leave it at that, then the following happens:

>100% chance to hit and overflow +1.63% CrtH & +6.52% CrtD

Say we have to pick one mod: ACC or CrtH or CrtD

ACC) >100% chance to hit and overflow +2.5% CrtH & +10% CrtD

CrtH) >100% chance to hit and overflow +3.63% CrtH & +6.52% CrtD

CrtD) >100% chance to hit and overflow +1.63% CrtH & +26.52% CrtD

Say we have to pick one mod: ACCx2 or CrtHx2 or CrtDx2

ACCx2) >100% chance to hit and overflow +3.2% CrtH & +12.96% CrtD

CrtHx2) >100% chance to hit and overflow +5.63% CrtH & +6.52% CrtD

CrtDx2) >100% chance to hit and overflow +1.63% CrtH & +46.52% CrtD

Say we have to pick one mod: ACCx3 or CrtHx3 or CrtDx3

ACCx3) >100% chance to hit and overflow +3.88% CrtH & +15.5% CrtD

CrtHx3) >100% chance to hit and overflow +7.63% CrtH & +6.52% CrtD

CrtDx3) >100% chance to hit and overflow +1.63% CrtH & +66.52% CrtD

Say you went with ACC/CrtH/CrtD...

>100% chance to hit and overflow +4.5% CrtH & +26.52% CrtD

ACC/CrtHx2...

>100% chance to hit and overflow +6.5% CrtH & +6.52% CrtD

CrtHx2/CrtD...

>100% chance to hit and overflow +5.63% CrtH & +26.52% CrtD

Again, ACCx3 is...

>100% chance to hit and overflow +3.88% CrtH & +15.5% CrtD

No mods... (Accurate & 9 Targeting vs. Elusive & 9 Maneuvers at 0 speed)...

>100% chance to hit and overflow +1.63% CrtH & +6.52% CrtD

The 3x ACC mods are giving you +2.25% CrtH and +8.98% CrtD over the no mods weapon against a held target.

Obviously, against a moving target you're going to be looking at the to-hit roll. Let's say the target's an Escort, moving at 24+ impulse...no abilities, other gear, etc. Just our Acc/Targeting vs. Elu/Maneuvers/Escort/no penalty for being below 24 impulse...

ACCx3: 80% to-hit
no mods: 64.5% to-hit

This is all based off of the various Jedi Counsel posts and the STOked spreadsheet.

I have noticed in other threads that people are looking at the Accuracy Overflow in a different manner than presented by the Jedi Counsel posts.

The 0.125 CrtH modifier per 0.1 difference in Acc/Def is treated as 1.25% in the Jedi posts. Some folks are treating it as 12.5% per 0.1... which I can see based on the wording of the explanation where the 0.125 is said to be treated as a %. However, in the examples given - it's treated as 1.25% and not 12.5%.

edit: Don't forget to subtract the 1 from the Diff Positive Box for the actual Accuracy Overflow.

So say we go with no skills/traits/gear other than the weapon mod - so we've got 100% Accuracy and 85% Defense (not to be confused with Bonus Accuracy/Defense)...

With it being 1.6% CrtH and 6.52% CrtD on ACCx3:

+3.88% CrtH
+15.5% CrtD

With it being 16.3% CrtH and 65.2% CrtD on ACCx3:

+38.8% CrtH
+155% CrtD

Were it the latter, though, there would be absolutely no reason ever to use CrtH/CrtD weapons...so it follows, imho, that the example given by the Jedi Counsel was correct and the explanation earlier in that was most likely misread by some.

edit: Thanks to pokersmith1 for pointing out where I was carrying a 1 in rushing that I should have - so I've adjusted the math.
Maal, Klingon, Mogh - Vegar, Orion, Marauder - R'ebel, Romulan, Haakona
Willard the Rat, Reman, F.T'varo - Rave, J.Trill, Kar'Fi - Mysk, Gorn, Varanus
Kopor, Nausicaan, Guramba - Nivuh, Ferasan, B'rel - Venit, Lethean, M.Qin

Last edited by virusdancer; 02-14-2013 at 04:49 PM.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 12,464
# 83
02-14-2013, 03:21 PM
Another thing to consider here:

To get the +10% Accuracy from an ACC mod requires 4-5 in Targeting...a T3 skill.

To get the +2% Critical Hit from a CrtH mod requires 9 in a weapon specialization (separate for energy and projectile)...a T5 skill.

The 9 specialization though, will also give you +25% CrtD which is better than the +20% from a CrtD mod. But it's a T5 skill...costly.

With nothing else (no traits, other gear, etc, etc, etc)...

5 in Targeting (10k SP) with CrtH/CrtD mods on a weapon will give you: +11.2% Acc, +2% CrtH, & +20% CrtD.

9 in Energy Weapon Specialization (27k SP) with ACCx2 on a weapon gives you: +20% Acc, +2% CrtH, & +25% CrtD. Course, that's only with your energy weapons - not your torps or mines. That will cost you another 27k SP.

What's the difference in that to-hit against a target moving at 24 impulse (no other traits, skills, gear, etc, etc, etc)...?

+11.2% = 75%
+20% = 80%

Against a target sitting still (no bonuses, etc, so it's at -15%), what kind of numbers are we looking at?

+11.2% = >100% with +4.65% CrtH & +30.6% CrtD
+20% = >100% with +5.2% CrtH & +37.96% CrtD

So...10k SP with CrtH/CrtD weapons or 54k SP with ACCx2 weapons to get:

Moving Target
+5% To-Hit
+5% CrtD

Pinned Target
+0.55% CrtH
+7.36% CrtD

Yes, those are rough numbers - there are all sorts of things that could be involved - gear, traits, actual movement speed, etc, etc, etc... so keep that in mind.

But still - look at the cost in skill points...then look at the cost of the weapons on the Exchange.

I wish more of my guys were built around saying, "Sit!" at the target or that I ran with groups that said it for me...lol. As is, I tend to run the ACCx2 or ACCx2/CrtH weapons. On the gal I'm leveling now, though - I'm planning on going that ACC/CrtHx2 route cause she's got some "Sit!" in her.

edit: Thanks to pokersmith1 for pointing out where I was carrying a 1 in rushing that I should have - so I've adjusted the math.
Maal, Klingon, Mogh - Vegar, Orion, Marauder - R'ebel, Romulan, Haakona
Willard the Rat, Reman, F.T'varo - Rave, J.Trill, Kar'Fi - Mysk, Gorn, Varanus
Kopor, Nausicaan, Guramba - Nivuh, Ferasan, B'rel - Venit, Lethean, M.Qin

Last edited by virusdancer; 02-14-2013 at 04:32 PM.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,068
# 84
02-14-2013, 03:24 PM
i always do better with the acc mod.

can't explain why, nor do i really ever disagree with thissler....on anything.

i'll leave this one to you guys to debate.

have fun kill bad guys

-thrusters on full-
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 12,464
# 85
02-14-2013, 03:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by thishorizon View Post
i always do better with the acc mod.

can't explain why, nor do i really ever disagree with thissler....on anything.

i'll leave this one to you guys to debate.

have fun kill bad guys

-thrusters on full-
Don't forget this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by borticuscryptic View Post
Progress!

With the assistance of one of our Programmers, we think we've uncovered the issue at hand.

Suffice it to say, Enhancements from weapons (like [Acc] mods, but also includes [Dmg], [CrtD], etc, as well as Procs) aren't being properly inherited by all powers in all circumstances. I'm hesitant to post more details than that until we have a working fix, which is unlikely to happen internally until next week at the earliest.

So, stay tuned! I'll let you all know what's going on, once we have made more progress internally.
Still no news, mind you...meh. But we really don't know how things would have worked had they worked as they intended things to work nor what will come of it actually working after they tune it...until they actually do it.

I'm still interested to see what this is going to do to the game when it hits Tribble...
Maal, Klingon, Mogh - Vegar, Orion, Marauder - R'ebel, Romulan, Haakona
Willard the Rat, Reman, F.T'varo - Rave, J.Trill, Kar'Fi - Mysk, Gorn, Varanus
Kopor, Nausicaan, Guramba - Nivuh, Ferasan, B'rel - Venit, Lethean, M.Qin
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 522
# 86
02-14-2013, 03:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by virusdancer View Post
*snip*
Thank you for your response. From my understanding of the spreadsheet, I took it to be +1.25% critical chance and +5% critical severity for each 10% accuracy overflow. However your numbers and mine don't match. Here are the numbers that I came up with - click.


Quote:
Originally Posted by virusdancer View Post
Another thing to consider here:

To get the +10% Accuracy from an ACC mod requires 4-5 in Targeting...a T3 skill.

*snip*
I was not aware that skill points modified the modifiers. That is news to me. Do you have a source? If you do, can u point me to it?

Last edited by pokersmith1; 02-14-2013 at 03:48 PM.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 12,464
# 87
02-14-2013, 04:26 PM
Hrmm, my numbers are off - thanks to pokersmith1 for pointing that out. I'll need to go back and fix that...meh. I was keeping the 1.xxx when pasting instead of 0.xxx... bah, that will teach me to rush through something. I'll go back and edit it...first though...

Quote:
Originally Posted by pokersmith1 View Post
Thank you for your response. From my understanding of the spreadsheet, I took it to be +1.25% critical chance and +5% critical severity for each 10% accuracy overflow. However your numbers and mine don't match. Here are the numbers that I came up with - click.
Elusive gives you +10% Bonus Defense.
9 Maneuvers gives you +15% Bonus Defense.

That's +25% Bonus Defense.

Course as noted below, you were probably applying the -15% for sitting still to get that 10%...so never mind.

Based on the example provided here:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Archived Post View Post
On the flip-side, assume that you still have no inherent Accuracy modifiers, but your target is stopped (and taking a -15% Defense penalty, or -.15), plugging in 1.00 into the Accuracy box, and .85 into the Defense box, you get 0.15 as your Diff score. Since this is positive, you would look in the If Diff Positive box, and get "1.13..." as your result... Meaning you have 'Accuracy Overflow'... You have 100% chance to-hit your target, and, if you look in the lower-right hand portion of the spreadsheet, you can look on the Accuracy Overflow table, and look at the entry for 0.1 (since your overflow is 0.13-ish)... You would gain a little more than 1.25% Critical Chance, and a little more than 5% Critical Severity.
While the Diff is 0.15, it's a case of looking at the Diff Positive Box - not the number in the Diff Box. So you're looking at 0.130434783 - that's the Accuracy Overflow - not the 0.15...

So that gives you +1.63% CrtH & +6.5% CrtD.

With your example, not sure how you got the Accuracy Overflow of 0.15... was it the Diff Box and not the Diff Positive Box for a +25% Accuracy vs. +10% Defense (should be +25%)?

Hrmmm, I need to go back and redo my numbers like I said...stupid of me carrying that 1 over...meh.

Let me do a quick example here though and I'll go back to edit those afterward:

Accurate (+10%) & 9 Targeting (+15%) vs. Elusive (+10%) & 9 Maneuvers (+15%) vs. a target sitting still (oh, duh - that's where you got the 10% - like I said, I'm not thinking right now...moron that I am).

So that gives us our +1.63% CrtH & +6.5% CrtD.

If we add a +10% ACC mod to that, our Accuracy Overflow becomes 0.2 giving us +2.5% CrtH & +10% CrtD.

If we took a +2% CrtH mod, we'd have +3.63% CrtH & +6.5% CrtD.

If we took a +20% CrtD mod, we'd have +1.63% CrtH & +26.5% CrtD.

2x ACC: +3.2% CrtH & +12.96% CrtD
2x CrtH: +5.63% CrtH & +6.5% CrtD
2x CrtD: +1.63% CrtH & +46.5% CrtD

So yeah, I'll go back and fix my math...meh.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pokersmith1 View Post
I was not aware that skill points modified the modifiers. That is news to me. Do you have a source? If you do, can u point me to it?
It's not a case of modifying the modifier...it's a case of giving a modifier.

An ACC mod gives +10% Accuracy.
4 in Targeting gives +9.7% Accuracy...5 gives +11.2%.

http://home.comcast.net/~amicus/Skil...%20Effects.htm
Maal, Klingon, Mogh - Vegar, Orion, Marauder - R'ebel, Romulan, Haakona
Willard the Rat, Reman, F.T'varo - Rave, J.Trill, Kar'Fi - Mysk, Gorn, Varanus
Kopor, Nausicaan, Guramba - Nivuh, Ferasan, B'rel - Venit, Lethean, M.Qin

Last edited by virusdancer; 02-14-2013 at 04:28 PM.
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 609
# 88
02-14-2013, 04:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by virusdancer View Post
Don't forget this:



Still no news, mind you...meh. But we really don't know how things would have worked had they worked as they intended things to work nor what will come of it actually working after they tune it...until they actually do it.

I'm still interested to see what this is going to do to the game when it hits Tribble...
If they intend on screwing up how acc mod works currently, they will tick off a vast majority of PvPers who spent quit a fortune on acc weapons over the years. Including myself... further :3

Cryptic is kind of famous for angering its playerbase anyway, so nothing new for them to worry about.

| Join Date: January 2009 | Computer | Fleet: Broken Wings |
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 12,464
# 89
02-14-2013, 04:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mewi View Post
If they intend on screwing up how acc mod works currently, they will tick off a vast majority of PvPers who spent quit a fortune on acc weapons over the years. Including myself... further :3

Cryptic is kind of famous for angering its playerbase anyway, so nothing new for them to worry about.
It's a case that mods/procs are not working with certain abilities. Weapons with those mods/procs should work better...all in all, folks should end up dying faster, eh?

Course, that's where the tuning comes into play...hrmm...
Maal, Klingon, Mogh - Vegar, Orion, Marauder - R'ebel, Romulan, Haakona
Willard the Rat, Reman, F.T'varo - Rave, J.Trill, Kar'Fi - Mysk, Gorn, Varanus
Kopor, Nausicaan, Guramba - Nivuh, Ferasan, B'rel - Venit, Lethean, M.Qin
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,725
# 90
02-14-2013, 05:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mewi View Post
If they intend on screwing up how acc mod works currently, they will tick off a vast majority of PvPers who spent quit a fortune on acc weapons over the years. Including myself... further :3
If it pisses off Kerrateers it would be worth it.


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