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Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 318
# 21
02-14-2013, 05:46 PM
Its a decent idea and defiantly a premise that makes logical seance; as in moving target will not be where you aim some times. There ares little things like why cant you tell your torp it missed and should turn around and try again. And how the hell do you miss with a C weapon at kilometers? I suppose we could say electronic warfare but wouldn't that make sci ships the Vanilla ice of STO?

So lets just throw real life thoughts away and go from game play as its less of a headache with the way things are.

And it basically works out to tac skills save for a attack pattern or two and maybe the hull debuf remain unchanged, and the very powerful tac skills remain unchanged. Eng basically doesn't change as they really dont cast much on enemy's but the systems there so extends and eng team now have a miss chance on others. Minor nurf to escorts as they get less heals, however cruisers now cant do anything really helpful but deploy lots of warp plasma.
And then finally most all sci skills eat it in the face. You will never hit the escort with anything that bothers it save a really lucky RNG on subnuke. The new FOTM build would be double omega, 2 piece aegis evasive and KHG shield. All hail the nigh invulnerable escort, resistance is futile you will roll a tac in an escort or be meaningless cannon fodder.

I'm a bit bitter about this but not at you, I'm bitter at the system as I have an irrational fear of such actually happening. Its close enough already Sci just needs to be found to have a few more unintended benefits from tac buffs before they remove any purpose for them to exist other than healing slots/boats.
Full disclaimer I'm a Tac cap in a CC/burst Vesta. So yea the humor is not lost on me of my post.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 13,064
# 22
02-14-2013, 05:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hurleybird View Post
Changes the game from one of skill to one of fluke, simple as that.
Er... changes?

I already listed a bunch of the RNG that already exists in the game...

...the skill involved in this game is about maximizing your fluke to get an advantage over your opponent's fluke. That wouldn't change.
Vice Admiral Geist, Klingon Science Officer
V.S.S. Oracle, D'Kyr-class Science Vessel
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 13,064
# 23
02-14-2013, 06:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hroothvitnir View Post
Its a decent idea and defiantly a premise that makes logical seance; as in moving target will not be where you aim some times. There ares little things like why cant you tell your torp it missed and should turn around and try again. And how the hell do you miss with a C weapon at kilometers? I suppose we could say electronic warfare but wouldn't that make sci ships the Vanilla ice of STO?

So lets just throw real life thoughts away and go from game play as its less of a headache with the way things are.

And it basically works out to tac skills save for a attack pattern or two and maybe the hull debuf remain unchanged, and the very powerful tac skills remain unchanged. Eng basically doesn't change as they really dont cast much on enemy's but the systems there so extends and eng team now have a miss chance on others. Minor nurf to escorts as they get less heals, however cruisers now cant do anything really helpful but deploy lots of warp plasma.
And then finally most all sci skills eat it in the face. You will never hit the escort with anything that bothers it save a really lucky RNG on subnuke. The new FOTM build would be double omega, 2 piece aegis evasive and KHG shield. All hail the nigh invulnerable escort, resistance is futile you will roll a tac in an escort or be meaningless cannon fodder.

I'm a bit bitter about this but not at you, I'm bitter at the system as I have an irrational fear of such actually happening. Its close enough already Sci just needs to be found to have a few more unintended benefits from tac buffs before they remove any purpose for them to exist other than healing slots/boats.
Full disclaimer I'm a Tac cap in a CC/burst Vesta. So yea the humor is not lost on me of my post.
It would take a great deal of careful crafting - certain abilities would likely have built in ACC modifiers, etc, etc, etc.

It would be a major overhaul and not something I think Cryptic should (or even could) do for STO...STO2 perhaps, lol, but yeah - not for STO.

It's just funny, when you think about what Thissler said in the other thread - about chasing Def with Acc or just nailing that Def. It's far more cost effective to nail the Def than chase the Def.

Three Sci abilities that can't miss render any discussion of Acc or Def moot...they simply no longer matter.

But it's just one of many things wrong in STO...so it couldn't be addressed, imho, without addressing many things...which isn't going to happen. But that doesn't change how it stands out like a sore thumb... why so many things are about spike, how people are invincible until they pop like a ripe zit. I don't get why people find that to be fun...
Vice Admiral Geist, Klingon Science Officer
V.S.S. Oracle, D'Kyr-class Science Vessel
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,392
# 24
02-14-2013, 07:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by virusdancer View Post
.....But that doesn't change how it stands out like a sore thumb... why so many things are about spike, how people are invincible until they pop like a ripe zit. I don't get why people find that to be fun...
Good post, I feel your grip on this getting tighter and tighter.

But the over the top imagery just SHINES! Dude I want you to write my copy. Imma send you my stuff from now on, and you post it.

Cheers and happy flying!
If I don't respond to posts on this forum don't be offended. I don't sub or follow any of them.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 881
# 25
02-14-2013, 07:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by virusdancer View Post
Er... changes?

I already listed a bunch of the RNG that already exists in the game...

...the skill involved in this game is about maximizing your fluke to get an advantage over your opponent's fluke. That wouldn't change.
It certainly would change. Getting lucky or unlucky on crits or procs is something that can be averaged out in a game. The better team will win regardless 99 times out of 100.

If the first two subnukes on my team hit, but the other side's miss, a domino effect can start up that will shift the entire momentum of the match. Lining up a kill with buffs and debuffs is something that comes down to coordination. Add this pants-on-head-retarded idea to the game and it comes down to fluke. If expertly executed team work is going to fail, it should be down to the other side being even more on the ball, not down to the roll of a dice.

It's true that there's already a certain amount of randomness in some areas of the games, but that's a silly excuse to add randomness to the rest. There's such a thing as a good middle ground. Hell, I'd even go as far as to say that randomness in some areas needs to be toned down -- phaser shield procs for instance, or calling in a dreadnought with fleet support. Randomness should have the potential to sway the result of a confrontation one way or the other, but should never be the primary catalyst by which an outcome is decided.

People here need to spend less time campaigning their obviously dumb pet ideas, and more time forming teams so they can learn how to play and increase the level of competition in the game. I guarantee you that doing the later will minimize the former, and help us present a more unified and coherent front. Massive amounts of crap threads like these confuse Cryptic and serve to hide real issues through sheer volume. Wise up, people.
Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,416
# 26
02-14-2013, 08:05 PM
this would totally nerf science, and since there is no way to boost the "accuracy" of skills it would make science even weaker then it already is with all the resists/immunities/science teams out there as it is.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mancom View Post
Frankly, I think the only sound advice that one can give new players at this time is to stay away from PVP in STO.
Science pvp at its best-http://www.youtube.com/user/matteo716
Do you even Science Bro?
Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 309
# 27
02-14-2013, 08:18 PM
Well if your perfect team who works perfectly depends on 1,2,3 SNB-s, u are in fact, saying that all that perfect work depends only on one ability. Times 3. Whats wrong with this picture?
Anyways, ability missing shouldn't be tied to the current defense/accuracy system. it should be flat perfect 5-10-15% doesn't matter.
________________________________________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by skurf View Post
That's what's so great about HoBOs. We are not just 5 or 6 competent players, we are a fleet full of badass mother****ers that will PUNISH THE FEDs until their index fingers are worn to the bone from clicking the respawn button over and over! Q'pla!
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 141
# 28
02-14-2013, 08:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by virusdancer View Post
Er... changes?

I already listed a bunch of the RNG that already exists in the game...

...the skill involved in this game is about maximizing your fluke to get an advantage over your opponent's fluke. That wouldn't change.
The flukey parts of the game are on things that happen so often that they get balanced out.

The problem is that with cooldown abilities, they are infrequent enough that a short streak of misses might last an entire match.

If there's a 10% chance of something and you do it 100 times (and hit rolls for weapons are typically done many hundreds of times) then over all things get averaged out. If you do it twice though, then it's not that uncommon to roll that 10% twice in a row

If you wanted abilities to roll to hit, you'd need to reduce their cooldowns enough that they'd be used hundreds of times in a typical match.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,757
# 29
02-14-2013, 09:51 PM
i think this would basically be a sci nerf, they do the most casting of things on others.
gateway links-->Norvo Tigan, Telis Latto Ruwon, Sochie Heim, Solana Soleus
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 13,064
# 30
02-16-2013, 02:39 PM
I wanted to provide an example of a non-physical ability, since I've kind of outlined how physical abilities would work like weapon abilities.

Jam Sensors

As it stands now, it always hits. Sensors doesn't give you any resistance to it hitting - it just helps reduce the duration after it has hit. The various levels of Jam Sensors increases the duration as well as the damage the target can receive before it's automatically broken. CMS can add to the duration of Jam. Aux plays a role in the fun to be had here.

So it's an always hit ability where JS version + CMS + Aux vs. Sensors +Aux determines the duration.

Doesn't this strike anybody as odd?

Let's break out Tom and Jerry for a demonstration, eh?

Jerry's got 9 Sensors, 9 CMS, is running 125 Aux, has all sorts of gear boosting both Sensors and CMS, and has JS3.

Tom's got 0 in Sensors/CMS, is running 25 Aux (no WCE/WCP/ship bonus), has no gear that boosts either Sensors or CMS, and has JS1.

Let's give both TB1 (ignoring any need to hit, this is not about that right now).

Jerry with his oodles of CMS, 125 Aux, and JS3 hits Tom first. Tom's TB drops.
Tom with no CMS, 25 Aux, and JS1 hits Jerry first. Jerry's TB drops.

Wait? What? Seriously? Yes, that's the way it works with the current system. Sure Tom's JS1 isn't going to last anywhere near as long on Jerry as Jerry's JS3 would on Tom... but it's automatic hit - the resistance only works as a reduction to duration not a resistance to application.

Oh yeah, by the way - all that increased duration that Jerry's got over Tom? Let me throw a wrench into that for you.

Again, Tom's got 0 Sensors and is sporting 25 Aux. He's just been nailed by Jerry's MEGA JAM 9000! What does Tom do? He pops ST1. What? Yep, it's that simple for Tom to clear it. He doesn't need ST3 or anything? Nope. The guy with no skill points nor any gear can be just as effective with a JS1 and ST1 as the guy with all the points, all the gear, as well as JS3 and ST3.

So imagine instead then, that it worked like this:

Attacker
CMS provided a +Accuracy
Aux provided a +Accuracy
Rank of the Jam provided a +Accuracy

Defender
Sensors provided a +Defense
Aux provided a +Defense

Well, it looks like it should always be a hit then, no? There's more ways to get the +Acc than the +Def. CMS is a T5 skill. Sensors is a T4 skill. Sensors is cheaper. If somebody's spent those skill points in CMS...they deserve that edge.

So going back to Tom and Jerry... Tom's nowhere near as likely to actually land his JS1 as Jerry would be to land his JS3. Isn't that more fair to Jerry than the current system is? How is that a nerf to Sci? It's rewarding the guy that made the investment in Sci...so maybe it's a nerf to the guy that was just looking for a gimmick. That guy's not Sci though...

And then there's the other side of it:

Defender
Sensors provided a +Accuracy
Aux provided a +Accuracy
Rank of ST provided a +Accuracy

Attacker
CMS provided a +Defense
Aux provided a +Defense
Rank of the Jam provided a +Defense

Much like the way weapon attacks work, even if the +Acc was lower than the +Def... there would still be a chance to clear the Jam before it naturally expired. It would remove the ability for Tom to laugh at Jerry as Tom hits his ST1...but at the same time, it wouldn't leave Jerry able to bend Tom over the kitchen table completely...

So I have to wonder...how is a system that actually benefits Sci - something that is a nerf to them? If anything, it's a buff - those that invest will get nice rewards from doing so. Yes, the folks that make no investment other than picking up the lowest rank of something to capitalize on it... well, they'll see a more suitable return on their investment.

Say a person only has room for the JS1 or the ST1 - are they going to be heavily penalized? Those aren't the only sources involved in the formula are they? If they've made investments elsewhere - then they'll have a better return on that investment than somebody that made no investment at all, eh?
Vice Admiral Geist, Klingon Science Officer
V.S.S. Oracle, D'Kyr-class Science Vessel
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