Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,192
# 281
02-15-2013, 06:18 AM
In the grand scheme of things, few thousands of hull hps means nothing.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,400
# 282
02-15-2013, 06:39 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dalnar83 View Post
In the grand scheme of things, few thousands of hull hps means nothing.
1k or 2k? Sure.

10k or more? No, that's significant.

Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 141
# 283
02-15-2013, 08:32 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ussultimatum View Post
1k or 2k? Sure.

10k or more? No, that's significant.
It depends on how much hull you had to begin with.

At the low end hull matters a lot, but once you have a certain amount of buffer, it loses it's importance. If you're in either a cruiser or a patrol escort you can survive bleedthrough damage, and have a bit of buffer to heal. Attacks that would insta-kill the patrol escort are likely to do it to the cruiser too.

Something like a BoP can die if you blink at the wrong time, no matter what the shields are like.

I've never really complained about the hull on the JHAS though -- basic escorts are already at the point where more hull wouldn't help them much, so it's not a big advantage for them. My problem with the JHAS has always been that it is best-in-class in every category, and has a turn-rate inconsistent with other escorts. The Wells has a similar problem, but dogfighting ability isn't so crucial on a science ship.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,400
# 284
02-15-2013, 09:14 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by inktomi19 View Post
It depends on how much hull you had to begin with.

At the low end hull matters a lot, but once you have a certain amount of buffer, it loses it's importance. If you're in either a cruiser or a patrol escort you can survive bleedthrough damage, and have a bit of buffer to heal. Attacks that would insta-kill the patrol escort are likely to do it to the cruiser too.

I don't agree, although I think there is merit to your point.

I think that as we watch the current metagame shift away from pressure to spike (or chained spikes), that higher caps become more relevant.

A Fleet Cruiser with 60k hull and 50% resistance (effective 120k hull) + 12K (x4) shields with 50% resistance (effective potential 18k facing or 72k 4 pool)

has a better chance to survive such an event compared to

A Destroyer/High Hull Escort with 45k hull and 50% resistance (effective 90k hull) + 9k (x4) shields with 50% resistance (effective potential 13.5k facing or 54k pool) .



This doesn't even include the potential boff layouts (healing potential) with powers such as Aux to SIF 3, ET 3, EPTS 3 all being available to the cruiser (which would also change those made up out of thin air generic ship stats I put forward).


Quote:
Originally Posted by inktomi19 View Post
My problem with the JHAS has always been that it is best-in-class in every category, and has a turn-rate inconsistent with other escorts. The Wells has a similar problem, but dogfighting ability isn't so crucial on a science ship.

I don't have a problem with your assessment, I do think your underestimating the value of the higher base turn rate on the Wells for getting SNB/90 degree powers/movement linked powers (TBR, PSW)/assist damage on kills on target, etc.

There is also the potential BOFF layouts (another frequent JHAS complaint) making it both one of the best healers and best sci capable ships.


My points in this thread have been a few key items:

1) People focus complaints on the JHAS, because most people are focued on Escorts - and tend to exaggerate ("as much hull as a cruiser!!") or forget about other ship classes (Wells, Recluse) and the powerful ships that are in them.

2) Most lockbox ships have some very clear advantages over most Fleet Ships - and extremely large and clear advantages over most Cstore "T5" ships.

3) The chances of Cryptic nerfing lockbox ships is infinitesimally small, and as much as it might get ire directed at me - I personally feel from a purely business standpoint (and not a game balance standpoint, which would be the opposite opinion) that nerfing these ships in anyway would be a completely terrible business decision.


Requesting better balance going forward on NEW SHIPS is likely to have a better chance of coming true than seeing currently sold ships get nerfed.


Last edited by ussultimatum; 02-15-2013 at 09:22 AM.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 193
# 285
02-16-2013, 08:04 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ussultimatum View Post
I don't agree, although I think there is merit to your point.

I think that as we watch the current metagame shift away from pressure to spike (or chained spikes), that higher caps become more relevant.

A Fleet Cruiser with 60k hull and 50% resistance (effective 120k hull) + 12K (x4) shields with 50% resistance (effective potential 18k facing or 72k 4 pool)

has a better chance to survive such an event compared to

A Destroyer/High Hull Escort with 45k hull and 50% resistance (effective 90k hull) + 9k (x4) shields with 50% resistance (effective potential 13.5k facing or 54k pool) .



This doesn't even include the potential boff layouts (healing potential) with powers such as Aux to SIF 3, ET 3, EPTS 3 all being available to the cruiser (which would also change those made up out of thin air generic ship stats I put forward).





I don't have a problem with your assessment, I do think your underestimating the value of the higher base turn rate on the Wells for getting SNB/90 degree powers/movement linked powers (TBR, PSW)/assist damage on kills on target, etc.

There is also the potential BOFF layouts (another frequent JHAS complaint) making it both one of the best healers and best sci capable ships.


My points in this thread have been a few key items:

1) People focus complaints on the JHAS, because most people are focued on Escorts - and tend to exaggerate ("as much hull as a cruiser!!") or forget about other ship classes (Wells, Recluse) and the powerful ships that are in them.

2) Most lockbox ships have some very clear advantages over most Fleet Ships - and extremely large and clear advantages over most Cstore "T5" ships.

3) The chances of Cryptic nerfing lockbox ships is infinitesimally small, and as much as it might get ire directed at me - I personally feel from a purely business standpoint (and not a game balance standpoint, which would be the opposite opinion) that nerfing these ships in anyway would be a completely terrible business decision.


Requesting better balance going forward on NEW SHIPS is likely to have a better chance of coming true than seeing currently sold ships get nerfed.
sadly this is more plausible. after all they wont nerf the big money maker but they will nerf the dred to obivian so it "works as intended"
Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 421
# 286
02-16-2013, 09:16 AM
Maybe, from a business stand point, they need to take a look back at the Fleet variants and give them a bit of a boost. None of them really compare and you'll certainly have greater selling opportunities since they are character only.

Normally I'd go with my usual line about how much easier it would be to just address the problem. That doesn't seem likely but since the last patch adjusted some fleet ship stats then maybe they all need a little more. Go ahead and balance the entire tier 5ish roster around a single long standing mistake just so long as issues finally get addressed.

The biggest sticking point for me, and it does relate to balance, is that the iconic ships don't need to be over powered but they can't be allowed to become obsolete.
__________________________________________
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,400
# 287
02-16-2013, 10:12 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevehale View Post
Maybe, from a business stand point, they need to take a look back at the Fleet variants and give them a bit of a boost. None of them really compare and you'll certainly have greater selling opportunities since they are character only.

Normally I'd go with my usual line about how much easier it would be to just address the problem. That doesn't seem likely but since the last patch adjusted some fleet ship stats then maybe they all need a little more. Go ahead and balance the entire tier 5ish roster around a single long standing mistake just so long as issues finally get addressed.

The biggest sticking point for me, and it does relate to balance, is that the iconic ships don't need to be over powered but they can't be allowed to become obsolete.
I don't have any issues with that direction.

I like the improvements made to some of the fleet ships, and I think they need to tweak more of the fleet ships across the board.


The lockbox ships would always likely have some advantage, but hopefully not to the point that iconic faction ships are "obsolete"**

**(obsolete from a pure min/max pvp viewpoint - for pve the JHAS advantages are largely irrelevant, the Recluse is all but pointless to use from a performance standpoint and the Vesta is easily a better ship to use than the Wells - on top of this a Tac focused Ody is one of, if not the best, damage capable Fed Cruisers for STFs).


Last edited by ussultimatum; 02-16-2013 at 10:16 AM.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 141
# 288
02-17-2013, 06:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ussultimatum View Post
I don't agree, although I think there is merit to your point.

I think that as we watch the current metagame shift away from pressure to spike (or chained spikes), that higher caps become more relevant.

(snip)
Maybe, but it doesn't feel that way. I think a lot of that is because of the three types of tanking, hull-tanking is by far the worst. The ships with the highest hulls maneuver badly, so they are easy to immobilize, and easy for the enemy to focus on one shield against. If anything they seem to pop quicker.

In general I get the impression Cryptic undervalues turning and overvalues both hull and crew when they budget their ship stats (if they even bother trying to budget stats).
Quote:
This doesn't even include the potential boff layouts (healing potential) with powers such as Aux to SIF 3, ET 3, EPTS 3 all being available to the cruiser (which would also change those made up out of thin air generic ship stats I put forward).
I can have those same setups in a BoP.

And I actually do sometimes run a Vesta with an Lt Cmdr engineering slot, and that is basically just a better cruiser. I miss Aux2SIF 3 a little, but overall it's sturdier (because of it's shields) harder to pin down, and has a much easier time keeping up with team-mates.

I mean I get how powerful the healing BOffs can be, but that's sort of independent of the ship.

Quote:
I don't have a problem with your assessment, I do think your underestimating the value of the higher base turn rate on the Wells for getting SNB/90 degree powers/movement linked powers (TBR, PSW)/assist damage on kills on target, etc.
I really haven't had a problem using movement-linked powers in an Intrepid or a Vesta.

I've used a lot of movement-linked sci powers on an MVAM too, but didn't find that ships crazy-high maneuverability a big help onthe science powers (not that it wasn't a big help, but it helped dog-fighting using cannons, not lining up SNBs).

I find that a base-12 turn and engines that add turn are enough for me to use 90-degree abilities, PSW, TBR, and EWP whenever I like. It's not enough for cannon DPS in PvP, but sci powers usually only need to have the target in the arc for a split second.

It's definitely not the same situation as with the JHAS, because nothing about the Wells stops other science ships from doing their job against it, or makes it more difficult for other science ships to defend against it. I guess they are stronger against escorts than other science ships, but against other ship types they really aren't much different than other science ships.
Quote:
There is also the potential BOFF layouts (another frequent JHAS complaint) making it both one of the best healers and best sci capable ships.
Except for useless ensigns on some ships, I don't see BOff layouts as something which makes one ship obsolete or not. It's important, but there are ways to make most combinations work very well.

Quote:
My points in this thread have been a few key items:

1) People focus complaints on the JHAS, because most people are focued on Escorts - and tend to exaggerate ("as much hull as a cruiser!!") or forget about other ship classes (Wells, Recluse) and the powerful ships that are in them.
My biggest complaint against Bugs is from when I drive an escort. There is just no point having another escort in a match where there is a bug because he is going to outmaneuver you too much unless he makes some major mistake.

That's the same whether you're solo or on a team -- even on a team escorts need to try and stay out of the 45 degree arc of other escorts, and the JHAS is just going to have more time on target.

My science vessels and cruisers fare about the same against them as against any other escort played similarly.

That difference in maneuver exists fighting BoPs or MVAMs too, but both of those are significantly more fragile than regular escorts, so the slower ship can win by tanking a bit more and just making the best of the windows they get.
Quote:
2) Most lockbox ships have some very clear advantages over most Fleet Ships - and extremely large and clear advantages over most Cstore "T5" ships.
Maybe?

I see a lot of them in PvP, but none of them shift the balance the way the JHAS does.

I wouldn't have a problem with the JHAS being a better escort. It's turn rate is just way out of line with escorts, and turning is the most valuable attribute of escorts.
Quote:
3) The chances of Cryptic nerfing lockbox ships is infinitesimally small, and as much as it might get ire directed at me - I personally feel from a purely business standpoint (and not a game balance standpoint, which would be the opposite opinion) that nerfing these ships in anyway would be a completely terrible business decision.

Requesting better balance going forward on NEW SHIPS is likely to have a better chance of coming true than seeing currently sold ships get nerfed.
I'm not sure that broken ships are helping their bottom line any.

I've bought a lot of ships in the past, but I wouldn't now just because I know that whatever I buy can't compete. Why the heck would I unlock a Fleet Patrol Escort on one character for $20? I like the look of that ship, and I like the BOffs, consoles -- the whole nine yards. But I'd be out $20 and really be no better off than flying the regular tier 5 escort.

It's really the same down the line. I beat fleet ships as often as the regular tier 5 ones.

And Cryptic doesn't even bother trying to balance the game. They have paid ships like the Galaxy-R and Galaxy-X (which are not favorites of mine anyway) which have been broken and near-useless ever since they were introduced. And since a big problem with both of those is their horrible turn-rate, a trait which Cryptic chose to copy in the Odyssey, I don't see a reason to think they will ever try to balance their ships.

I mean, it's easy for Cryptic to see what portion of their revenue is gained from lockboxes. What's harder to see is what portion of their player-base is lost due to particular problems.

Maybe buffing virtually every other ship in the game would be the solution, but that seems silly when the problem is limited to just a couple of ships.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 141
# 289
02-17-2013, 07:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ussultimatum View Post
I don't have any issues with that direction.

I like the improvements made to some of the fleet ships, and I think they need to tweak more of the fleet ships across the board.


The lockbox ships would always likely have some advantage, but hopefully not to the point that iconic faction ships are "obsolete"**

**(obsolete from a pure min/max pvp viewpoint - for pve the JHAS advantages are largely irrelevant, the Recluse is all but pointless to use from a performance standpoint and the Vesta is easily a better ship to use than the Wells - on top of this a Tac focused Ody is one of, if not the best, damage capable Fed Cruisers for STFs).
Honestly my biggest problem with the lockbox ships is that they are so dramatically over-represented. When I left before there were just a few of them floating around, but now it seems like I have the only Starfleet or KDF ship wherever I am.

You're right about the JHAS not having any real advantage for PvE, though in PvE the general 'escort' advantage is a lot more important. Neither healing or control is anything near as important in PvE as they are in PvP, so any ship that's not an escort takes away from the team.

And if I wasn't feeling bad enough about the game, right now I can't play 3 of my characters because of that bug where every freaking time I fire all my abilities get locked out for 2 minutes. If Cryptic can't get the basics, it's not surprising that they ignore things that are genuinely hard, like balance.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 121
# 290
02-18-2013, 09:42 AM
I only do pvp for the dilithium rewards. If that's ever nerfed or taken out, I won't be pvping anymore. The pvp reputation will probably make ships more powerful. So new people first starting out are basically screwed. Their shields will be dropped within 3 seconds, and they'll be easily destroyed. I guess it's similar to other games, the people who have the better gear usually wins. Unless, you're talking about Guild Wars 2 which has structured pvp, everyone has the same stats and gear basically. That could be cool here in STO, where it's all about skill and not gear and consoles.
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