Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 47
# 1511
02-17-2013, 09:07 AM
Originally Posted by weylandjuarez View Post
*shakes head* I can't believe I'm writing that about the developer of a Star Trek game - this should be one of the greatest MMOs ever - where did it go so wrong?
It went wrong in May of 2011 when PWE purchased Cryptic. Since then, it's been a downward spiral of endless grindfests, micro-transactions, continued disregard for the KDF, lockboxes, continually rehashed STF's, legacy bugs that persist, new bugs with every patch, $20 "upgrades" to starbases that are mostly rubbish, and a general feeling of being screwed over by a game you love so dearly.

Of course that's just my two cents.
Survivor of Romulus
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,838
# 1512
02-17-2013, 09:15 AM
Originally Posted by corbormite View Post
I'm no expert but 100 FM - What's that, a couple of PvE missions? An hour?
Corbomite has got to be kidding.

Maybe you'd prefer players are given FM simply for logging in.
Yup, he's kiding.

STO isn't perfect, the missions could be more challenging (but the way they are implemented makes making a challenging mission difficult)
Oh wait, he's serious. You're quite right STO isn't perfect. In fact, it rather far from even approaching perfect.

eg. you always know where to go next.
No, wait. Back to kidding again.

But imho it is improving and is fun to play if you don't have unrealistic expectations.
(My bold)
You what? While some aspects of the game are fun, the vast majority of it is spoiled by bugs, bad missions, bad decisions taken by the powers that be and GRIND.

As for "unrealistic", I'm quite aware that bugs will happen and that sometimes there will be griefers or the odd bad decision, but the way we have been treated is utterly derisory. You sir, have effectively said "We will get nothing and we will be HAPPY".
Unfortunately, most human beings do not share that thought.
Originally Posted by virusdancer
ARC: A way to Redeem Codes
To be clear, I despise the oddy outfit.
Survivor of Romulus
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,612
# 1513
02-17-2013, 09:20 AM
Originally Posted by syberghost View Post
There is a link to the beginning of this thread on every page of the thread.

Also, a clarification; my post was in the first page of the old thread, not of this one. Sorry for the mis-remembrance. In any event, I've made my position clear to PWE, and that's all that matters; I have no desire to convince any player to agree with me or not, you all can make up your own minds about the patch and what, if anything, should be done to change it. Spamming my opinion over and over would just make it harder for anybody else to have their voice heard.
old thread wot old thread can u post a link so i can have a look please

hmm befor i forget i ment cryptic are fools for thinking it was a good idear for nerfing something else we "liked" about the game. we the players did not put up with it last time so why would we now.
Welcome to bugs online were we only fix the bugs you like, and will ignore the ones you hate.
These are the voyages of the USS Farmville. Her 5 year mission is to boldly farm where no one has farmed before.
Say No to ARK
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 16
# 1514
02-17-2013, 09:21 AM
Originally Posted by crownvic2door View Post
I could actually get behind the idea of a universal "Mark" system vs having three different marks we have to somehow earn. Marks and dill are amazingly hard to get vs the amount I have to spend to get anywhere in the game. Hardly any new content so to me the only goal is to grind, grind,grind in hopes I can advance my fleet and get the best of the best stuff for myself in return, just to get better at PVE's.
I could support an Exchange from Rom and omega marks to fleet marks but not the other way. It defeats the whole purpose of learning your traits from gaining experience with a certain faction. People could just do stfs and get romulan skills.... Doesn't make sense. There needs to be more fleet mark opportunities in game and faction marks should be awarded for playing any mission that contains that faction.
Career Officer
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 627
# 1515
02-17-2013, 09:23 AM
Originally Posted by corbormite View Post
it is improving and is fun to play .

Originally Posted by corbormite View Post
if you don't have unrealistic expectations.
I didn't realize wanting new content was unrealistic. I surely didn't know that not wanting the same stale content for meager rewards was unrealistic. I wasn't aware wanting bug fixes for bugs that have been in the game for 2+ years was unrealistic. I din't know that wanting some incentive to play the Foundry and level an alt was unrealistic.

Not all of us here are willing to continue to accept mediocrity.
How the Devs see Star Trek, apparently:
Star Trek: The Original Grind
Star Trek: The Next Grind
Star Trek: Deep Space Grind
Star Trek: Voyage to the Grind
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 123
# 1516
02-17-2013, 09:23 AM
Originally Posted by corbormite View Post
I'm no expert but 100 FM - What's that, a couple of PvE missions? An hour?

Maybe you'd prefer players are given FM simply for logging in.

STO isn't perfect, the missions could be more challenging (but the way they are implemented makes making a challenging mission difficult - eg. you always know where to go next). But imho it is improving and is fun to play if you don't have unrealistic expectations.
Actualy i get the impression you missed his point.
By just setting the numeric to 100 FM as a value to do math, he aimed quite low.

With Projects needing several 100 and later on several thousands of FM it is quite simple to see what his point is.

Small and medium Fleets are totaly screed by this move.

If it takes a small fleet to supply more then several Days to fuel a single project of 3 not counting the embassy that just has a runtime of 20h something smells bad.

After the removal small to medium Fleet players are forced to either run DOff CXP conversion like mad (solo content) or have to rely on pugging FE when they ain't have atleast 5 players online at the same time, what could be quite common on a one shard only a game like STO.

Just swinging back to FE why did people go for the iOR?
Certainly not because it was convinient. With real Fleet Event granting just low rewards even when doing ecxellent the time reward ratio was just bad and not tempting at all.

Throwing in that still low level Toons are allowed to que for Fleet events does not make it easy aswell to get a good reward ratio from Fleet Event if you ahve to pug.

And again you don't even have to be in a Fleet to que for Fleet Events where does the argument make sense that no solo content should reward for Fleet content when solo player and lowlevel players that dragg the chance of a medicore sucess down are the opposite extreme that is still not addressed.

Plus instead of just removing and telling that in may a change will happen does not a single Fleet any Good ecxept maybe the so called mega Fleets that are already at T4 or now running for T5 and cold more or less fuel the FM demand just by doing lots of Officer of the Watch Dailys.

Where is the balance in this move? I don't see it at all and the Fleet i am part of as several others we are in talks with don't do aswell.

A quick fix would have been to amp the FM reward ratio by about 400% to 500% on Fleet events and reducing the iOR to about something like 10 FM but just keep it.

People don't play content they think is not worth the effort for the time and sorry for saying it aloud Fleet Events are not worth the effort not for this ridicules rewards.
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 71
# 1517
02-17-2013, 09:24 AM
Originally Posted by corbormite View Post
I'm no expert but 100 FM - What's that, a couple of PvE missions? An hour?

Maybe you'd prefer players are given FM simply for logging in.

STO isn't perfect, the missions could be more challenging (but the way they are implemented makes making a challenging mission difficult - eg. you always know where to go next). But imho it is improving and is fun to play if you don't have unrealistic expectations.
If you like the game as is, that is perfectly fine. Far be it from *me* to tell you what you should like or dislike. The thing is though, instead of coming in with a thinly veiled "gaem iz fien l2p nub!!!111!!!!!" you could maybe point out how having any of the reasonable concerns or solutions regarding bugs, fleet progression, and pretty much anything else raised by many people in this thread addressed would ruin the game for you and not improve it over all.

*edit for typing fail
Career Officer
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 910
First, let me apologize if any of the following suggestions have already been mentioned. I attempted to read this entire thread, but I just can't keep up with all of the replies.


There has been a lot of talk lately in-game and on the forums about the changes made to what rewards are earned and how. From the grumblings, it?s obvious that a lot of players are unhappy with some of the changes that have been made. It?s also obvious that Cryptic is trying to find a fair and balanced approach as to how rewards are doled out in-game. So I wanted to put forth my own proposal for consideration to revamp the rewards system.

Star Trek Online is a persistent, ever-growing galaxy with a myriad number of players and player types. Some are here to role-play. Some are here to PvP. Some are here to grow their characters and their fleets. Some are here to play episodic story missions provided by Cryptic Studios or other players via the Foundry. All are here ?to boldly go? and experience the wonder that is Star Trek.

But what many, it seems, are being forced to do is grind, grind, grind. And not just any grind. No, you MUST play THIS mission if you want THAT reward.


How about giving players the option as to what rewards they want to play for on any given mission?

Most every mission available in the Mission Journal from Episode Replay to Available Dailies rewards Skill Points and Expertise, and this should remain for any and all missions undertaken. In addition, many of these missions also reward Dilithium, Fleet/Omega/Romulan Marks, and/or Equipment/Items. I suggest making this standard for ALL missions: Reward Skill Points and Expertise, AND a choice between Dilithium, Marks, or Equipment/Items.

Today you might want to play ?Mission A? for Dilithium. Tomorrow you might want to play the same mission for Fleet Marks. The next day maybe you?ll play for some other reward. The point is, the players choose what rewards they?re playing for AND have the freedom to play the game the way they want to play, instead of feeling forced to play it someone else?s way.

?I need to earn my Reputation Marks to advance my character, but my fleet?s counting on me to earn Fleet Marks to advance the fleet, and I?ve got to get Dilithium to buy that Mark XII gear I?ve been wanting, but I?ve only got a couple of hours to play! ARRRGH!!!?

As I?ve already said, Star Trek Online is ever-growing and will only get bigger. There is already more in the game than any one player could ever hope to accomplish in one day?s worth of playing. And the Delta and Gamma Quadrants haven?t even been added yet, much less the remainder of Alpha and Beta! Soon players will feel, if they aren?t already, that they are missing out on something if they?re being herded toward certain content just so they can get certain rewards.

?How the hell can I earn my Fleet Marks when everyone on my ?team? goes AFK during the mission?!?

And by giving players the choice of what rewards they earn in any mission they choose to play, it should eliminate the need to constantly change which missions reward what.

?What?! They nerfed the Foundry rewards again?!??

After implementation of this choice option, then Cryptic need only adjust down how much Dilithium, Marks, and/or Equipment/Items to reward on mission completion rather than eliminate the reward(s) altogether in the event exploitation is discovered, or adjust up if a need is found for Dilithium, Marks, and/or Equipment/Items. Players will find that their favorite content will continue to reward what they want/need, even if the amounts fluctuate from time to time.

Cryptic?s metrics should then start to reflect which content players actually WANT to play versus which content they HAVE to play since all missions become equal where rewards are concerned. This would also give Cryptic the insight into where they can revamp stale content that isn?t being played or eliminate it altogether in favor of new and better content.


Everyone knows that Fleet Marks are to benefit the advancement of the Fleets. Mr. Stahl has stated that Fleet Marks are intended to be rewarded for ?Fleet Gameplay?. And that?s all well and good. But what exactly is ?Fleet Gameplay?? As others have said before, if you're in a Fleet, ANY rewards that a player earns in ANY mission can be used toward Fleet Advancement (i.e. Expertise, Commodities, Duty Officers). So it stands to reason, that ANY mission that a player plays should also have the potential to reward Fleet Marks.

As suggested before, give players the choice to be rewarded Fleet Marks when they complete the mission. Many missions already have the ?choose one of the following? option upon completion. Let the player choose to be rewarded with Fleet Marks. Perhaps here the amounts rewarded are less than what would be rewarded for playing a Fleet Action or Fleet Event, but it still gives the solo player the ability to earn Fleet Marks for his/her Fleet.

And in response to Mr. Stahl?s comment about Fleet Marks being intended for ?Fleet Gameplay?: Doesn?t just about any content in the game give you the opportunity to team up with other players, with players replacing members of the Away Team, etc? So then, any content in the game where players CAN team up with other players should have the potential to award Fleet Marks. And any content that REQUIRES players to team up with 5 or more other players should definitely reward Fleet Marks, albeit at a higher rate than solo content.


If you?ve maxed out your Commendation Experience Points (CXP) in any Commendation category, then you know that excess CXP can be converted to Fleet Marks by filing a Commendation Report. I propose that another way to help players earn Fleet Marks via this conversion process is by designating ALL mission/content with a Commendation category (or categories) and award CXP along with Skill Points and Expertise.

We already see this with Rescue Deferi Captives (Daily) which awards 10 Diplomatic CXP.

Now, we could see players earn Exploration CXP for Exploring Strange New Worlds, Military CXP for PvP, Engineering CXP for Crafting, Development CXP in the Reputation System, or even Trade CXP for buying/selling on the Exchange. I?ve often found it odd that I receive no Diplomatic CXP for any of the Diplomatic Investigations that Ambassador Jiro Sugihara sends me on.

No mission/content should have more than 3 category rewards, as I?ve seen no more than 3 categories on any one DOFF assignment. And rewards should probably be no more than 10 CXP per category much like Rescue Deferi Captives (Daily), as the main source of CXP should remain with the DOFF system.

Foundry authors could also develop content that rewards CXP for certain categories. Espionage missions, Diplomatic missions, Scientific missions. All content, of course, meeting certain guidelines to avoid possible one-click exploitation.


Let me just say that I love the Reputation System, which gives players the ability to further develop their characters. We know that Cryptic plans to add more Reputation Tracks in the future, and one would assume that this would require players to play certain content/missions that would reward Marks exclusively for those new Reputation Tracks. And as Cryptic has already observed, this also means, players will abandon certain content within the game in order to pursue those Reputation Marks to further develop their characters. Including a small amount of Dilithium and Fleet Marks, as a reward choice, as stated above, to that content would help players and Fleets, by allowing players to continue to develop their characters through the Reputation System without having to completely abandon helping with Fleet Advancement.

An observation regarding the Reputation System and Marks:

We currently have 2 Reputation Tracks: Omega and Romulan, which require Omega Marks and Romulan Marks respectively.

?How many ?currencies? do they plan to add to this game anyway?!?

As Cryptic plans to add more Reputation Tracks in the future, it would tend to indicate that yet more "currencies" will be added in-game with every new Reputation Track added. Didn?t Cryptic try to streamline the economy once already by eliminating superfluous currencies in favor of Dilithium?

I propose that the Reputation System use one currency: Reputation Marks. All Tracks will use the same Reputation Marks, eliminating the need to keep track of a potentially endless number of different Marks for each Reputation Track added. Omega and Romulan Marks will need to be converted to Reputation Marks if this were to take place. Another reason this should done: What good will Omega and Romulan Marks be once players have maxed out those Reputation Tracks and unlocked everything in the respective stores? Surely, you don?t want players to completely abandon STFs and New Romulus once they?ve maxed out those Reputation Tracks. So what would they do with extraneous Omega and Romulan Marks?

?But what?s to stop players from exploiting that by just running Romulan missions and using the Reputation Marks earned there to level up and unlock items on the Omega Track??

Well, nothing I suppose. But to be honest, how is it an exploit? You EARNED the Reputation Marks, and the Reputation System is about developing your character. So shouldn?t you have a say in how you spend those Marks? And I?d much rather have that, than to keep track of a dozen different categories of Marks. The Reputation System has endless potential, and as I?ve already said, a potentially endless number of different Marks for each Reputation Track added, which would make the Reputation ?economy? cumbersome over the long haul. Streamlining it now would avoid a headache in the future.


There has been a lot of concern over how much Dilithium players earn in-game, and that has been addressed numerous times and in numerous ways. But players have been less concerned with how much Dilithium they EARN and more concerned with how much they can REFINE. The 8000 Dilithium per day refining cap has been the bigger hindrance for players.

?I?ve got unrefined Dilithium overflowing my cargo holds and nothing to do with it!?

For the players, perhaps add a Dilithium Mining Reputation Track that, once completed, would allow players to refine more Dilithium per day. Tier 1 +125 additional Dilithium refined per day. Tier 2 +250 additional Dilithium refined per day. Tier 3 +500 additional Dilithium refined per day. Tier 4 +1000 additional Dilithium refined per day. The Dilithium store for said Track could offer special Dilithium mining equipment that increase Dilithium rewards during the Dilithium Mining missions and events. Revamp the daily Dilithium Mining so that it would require players to actually search out the best Dilithium veins using said equipment. Each tier?s equipment would find better Dilithium sources and mine greater quantities, but each equipment tier would need to be unlocked before unlocking the next higher tier.

For the Fleets, perhaps add a Fleet Holding: Dilithium Refinery. Here unrefined Dilithium could be used to help tier up this Fleet Holding since many players seem to have more unrefined Dilithium than refined. And again, once completed, the Fleet Dilithium Refinery would allow players to refine more Dilithium per day. Tier 1 +250 additional Dilithium refined per day. Tier 2 +500 additional Dilithium refined per day. Tier 3 +1000 additional Dilithium refined per day. Perhaps special Geologist Duty Officers can be offered through here that can be used to earn bonus Dilithium during DOFF assignments, or be used in Active Ground Slots to provide a chance at bonus Dilithium during mining missions.

Between these two ideas, players could have access to an additional 2000 refined Dilithium per day once all projects are completed for a maximum of 10,000 refined Dilithium per day.


I think that scaling rewards based on the gameplay of Foundry missions was an excellent way to go. So in addition to giving players reward choice for any given mission, perhaps the idea of scaled rewards can be carried over into other aspects of the game as well.

How about scaling rewards based on the difficulty level at which the mission is played? This is already done with drops being more valuable at a higher difficulty setting. Why not reward more Dilithium, Fleet Marks, Reputation Marks, etc. at higher difficulty settings?

If players accept the challenge of playing harder against more difficult odds, then the rewards for success should be all that much greater.


?? ? ??

One final thing I would like to mention is Lockboxes. I think it?s fair to say that players have a love-hate relationship with Lockboxes. Players end up with a plethora of Lockboxes. Personally, I cannot even begin to afford all the keys I would need to open every Lockbox that I?ve accumulated thus far.

How about making Lockbox Keys a rare drop item? Say for every 10-20 Lockboxes that drop, a Lockbox Key would drop instead. Consider it the carrot to encourage the purchase of additional Lockbox Keys.

?Here?s a free Lockbox Key! Try it out! Get something good in the Lockbox? Perhaps you?d like to buy more Keys for greater rewards!?

I don?t know. It?s just a thought.

Anyway, these are some of my suggestions on how the Star Trek Online reward system might be revamped. I don?t pretend to know how all of the behind-the-scenes business of the game works. I just know what I see in-game, and what I?d like to see in-game. Perhaps all of these suggestions could work. Perhaps none of them could work. What do you think?
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 434
# 1519
02-17-2013, 09:27 AM
Originally Posted by corbormite View Post
I'm no expert but 100 FM - What's that, a couple of PvE missions? An hour?

Maybe you'd prefer players are given FM simply for logging in.

STO isn't perfect, the missions could be more challenging (but the way they are implemented makes making a challenging mission difficult - eg. you always know where to go next). But imho it is improving and is fun to play if you don't have unrealistic expectations.
Missions are fun... after about the first go around, try 10 times on the Fed and 3 on the KDF, it get's repetitive. Been here since OB yes the game has changed... slightly, mostly graphically, content not so much. Only a hand full of mission have ever been edited for "new" approach. Mostly Doomsday was redone the best... ohh Sthal still waiting on a KDF side of that mission like you mentions ohh so long ago. To quote Scotty, "I know this ship like the back of my hand". I left for about three to six months and I know the missions still.

STO Open Beta member since 2010.
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,192
# 1520
02-17-2013, 09:34 AM
Originally Posted by weylandjuarez View Post
*shakes head* I can't believe I'm writing that about the developer of a Star Trek game - this should be one of the greatest MMOs ever - where did it go so wrong?
Where did it go so wrong? Simple... A company that was deep in debt and hard up for money sold Cryptic (and by inclusion, STO) to a company whose sole motivator is making money. PWE spent 50 million dollars to purchase Cryptic from Atari for the prospect of making it all back and then some.

The company policy is that we the customers will never have to pay for mission content, and that the only thing that we will pay for is what we want. But here's the catch:

Everything in the game in terms of their current development approach costs massive amounts of Dilithium, which can be grinded for... OR bought for Zen on the Dilithium exchange. People buy Zen now, not necessarily to buy C-store goodies, but to shave some of the tedium from their efforts to progress in Season 6 and 7 (and most likely a large chunk of the May Update) content. Low levelers who are seeking to get ships, uniforms, inventory and bank slot upgrades, along with lockbox keys will trade their Dilithium for Zen until the get everything they think they need out of the C-store without having to spend their own money. Endgamers whose only real content is the reputation system because all the gear and ships most useful to their level is available there. So those without the time or inclination to grind the dilithium for themselves will spend money on Zen and trade it for Dilithium.

Ah... but how to keep people spending that money AND keep them from just buying their way past the grindfests? Add a secondary grind for a currency that you cannot buy. And you make each tier in the rep system and in fleet holdings require so much of that currency that before the majority of players complete it, the next fleet holding and reputation zone will be released, so the cycle continues.

If only a thousand people spend an average of $10 on Zen sales in a given month, that's $10,000.00 in revenue. Many spend WAY more than that in a month. And I think it is safe to say that there are way more than a thousand people who are both playing and paying, whether with straight-up Zen purchases or with subscriptions.

While frustrating and mind-numbingly boring the game has become with the cycle they are using, Although many of us think the game has gone so very wrong, as far as PWE is concerned, it's all gone so very right.

the real danger I perceive is form the point in the not too distant future when the cycle is broken. There will come a time where the lure of Free to Play will cease to draw people to STO, because at that point, those who are into MMOs and Star Trek will for the most part have already come to the title. So there will be less of an influx of low-levelers, and most of them that do not drop out of the game before reaching max level will be stuck having to grind pretty much all the dilithium they need for whatever the latest grindfest is, AND they'll need to grind the marks as well. At this point, I think we will see crates of 10k unrefined Dilithium Ore appear on the C-store. The refinement cap will remain in place, but the raw potential in Dilithium will increase. And then they will add a Mark Exchange that will work exactly like the RD-Zen exchange.

Mark my words. They will do whatever they can to keep grind going rather than devote real man hours to the development of content. Because the former requires them to deliver nothing and the latter will. Their business model is geared so that they receive revenue without really delivering. If we didn't have the grindfest gating us from the goods at the end of it, then we could have it all probably within a month. With the grindfests in place, they have us running the hamster wheel for months. Some of us will not be done with a single reputation focus or Fleet Holding after a year because we're not in any hurry, or we just don't have much time.

when you quantify the rewards and pretend for a moment that there is no grind to get them, would they really seem worth the effort? How many times have we seen a thread come up about the latest tier unlock, complaining how whatever gear that comes with it is not really all that great?

At some point down the road, when the marginalization of gear rewards becomes common knowledge among the masses, Cryptic will be forced to do one of two things:

1 - Start developing meaningful playable content that is not a grind where the players actually feel engaged in some sort of purpose-driven gameplay...


2 - Leave things as they will have been and watch the player population dwendle out of boredom until the only smart business move left to them will be to close STO down. Oh... and they will issue a public decree that any attempts to create and run an emulated STO server will be met with a lawsuit. With PWE backing them, they can afford to take action.

No... Unless there is a major change in PWE's business philosophy, or until someone with likely a minimum of 25 million comes along to buy STO, we will not likely see STO become anything more than it is.

When gambling, always remember that the house always wins. Each patch that goes by we gamble that STO will not have yet another change that is a detriment to the players. Cryptic is the house. And no matter what we do or say, they are going to have it their way. Even if it forces them to have to close STO down.

Neverwinter is their next cash cow. And they've got D&D fanatics lining up and even now spending $60 and $200 on pre-beta founders' perk packs. It's still PWE. It's still their business policies that will apply over there. Just like many of us who lined up to play an MMO set in the Star Trek universe, these people are fresh meat for the grinder.

The house will win.
I'm not really a John Galt,
but I play one on the forums...
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