Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,015
# 121
02-15-2013, 12:48 PM
Dude, you can insist on recorded data or you can use your own eyes. The greater number of shots from DCs means that they take longer to finish the firing portion of their cycle, and therefore have a greater portion of that cycle going on with weapon power at lower levels from being drained. Plus inherent CritD on DHCs. Don't be dense.

Weapon flavor procs are per cycle. DEM and Tet Glider are per shot. Those two benefit from higher shot rate. It is known. Bort said it but it's been archived. This is basic stuff. It is known.
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 1,110
# 122
02-15-2013, 02:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by xgorillapx View Post
How are DC's inferior due to power drain mechanics, and compared to what? Please include any recorded data comparisons that you may have as well.

Also in regards to the second part of the "quote",that was a discussion response prior to the DC vs DHC data comparison being brought to light on 2/8/13.
DC recommendations in the OP were removed when there was finally some scientific evidence brought forward in the DC vs DHC debate proving that DHC's provided more damage. While I am happy to do that, I will not go back and change every post, but I will note updates as they come about as I did in post #113. The biggest thing that came forward, I believe in that was that the higher firing rate of the DC's does not double the chance of a proc as widely believed. As there was nothing aside from the data link that I had found (and eventually posted), there was no way for anyone to have KNOWN that DHC's had a higher damage output. Not to mention, the damage difference is quite small, however it is there, so it must be mentioned.
If the player's ship uses the Omega Set Tetryon Glider, DC's will drain shields twice as fast over DHC's since that mechanic is hit-count-based. Otherwise, DHC's will out-damage DC's because of the extra 10% critical severity.

BTW, in light of the most recent Romulan weapons and gear, plasma now has the highest DPS output at this current patch due to the new Embassy plasma-infused science consoles. The Hyperplasma launcher can drop multiple shield-ignoring plasma fire stacks on enemy targets. The new Experimental beam array is also quite nasty -- using its hyperflux firing mode with FoMM and AP-Beta3, I watched an ESTF Negh'var and Cubes literally melt in seconds.

This is the Breen warpship build that I presently run in ESTF's and Fleet actions:

Ship Gear: Full Borg Space Set
-Weapons-
Fore = 2 Plasma DHC's + 1 Romulan Experimental Beam Array + 1 Romulan Hyper Plasma Torpedo Launcher
Aft = 3 Plasma Turrets + 1 Kinetic Cutting Beam
Devices = Red Matter Capacitor, Subspace Field Modulator
Consoles: Tachyokinetic Converter, Rule 62 Multipurpose Combat Console, Borg Assimilated Universal Module, Field Generator, Breen Power Dissipator OR Romulan Science Console, Plasma Infuser x4

BOFFS:
Ensign Univ: BO1
Commander Tac: TT1, CSV1, HYT3, AP-Beta3
Lt.Tac: TT1, CSV1
Lt.Eng: EPtS1, EPtS2
Lt.CmdrSci: HE1, ST1, GW1

DOFSS: 3 Attack Pattern Conn-doffs, 2 Projectile Weapon Officers

I don't bother with torp spreads since HYT3 Hyper-plasmas + GW1 yields much more net damage, especially against ESTF gates and tac-cubes. I've beaten Hive Space Elite more than a few times by cooking the queen with her shields over 80%.

Last edited by shar487a; 02-15-2013 at 02:53 PM.
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,232
# 123
02-15-2013, 09:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by xgorillapx View Post
How are DC's inferior due to power drain mechanics, and compared to what?
DC fire twice as often as DHC for the same theoretical dps. DC drain 10% each time where DHC draw 13%. In 2 shots of dc will draw 20 in the same time frame dhc draw the same 13.

Example.
You start with 125/100 weapons power and you fire with a -13 for 112/100. The dc fires the first shot of -10 making 125/100 drop to 115/100 so when the second salvo fires it drops to 105/100. Even though the recharge time is fast on the weapons power the second salvo @ 115/100 will have less dps then the first salvo at 125/100. this also means that the 2 shots compared to 1 bigger shot has less practical dps even though the theoretical dps is the same.

The advantage to dc over dhc is the proc. twice the shots means twice the proc chances however with proc immunity cooldowns that has also been reduced.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 243
# 124
02-16-2013, 12:54 PM
See that's the thing and what "redricky" is being grumpy about. It was proven in the link below
http://deepspacealliance.blogspot.co...annons-vs.html

He's arguing that we're stupid (me namely) for initially thinking that the DC's would dish out more damage based on the idea that the 2x firing rate would lead to 2x more procs.

The test used a controlled environment and kept track of procs as well. Both dual and dual heavy cannons proc'd the same amount of times. There was no increase for DC's.
This disproves the widely believed theory of having a higher proc chance with DC's due to their fire-rate being 2x as fast. So it appears that the firing rate really does have no bearing on proc's, but rather the amount of firing "cycles", where a DC will fire 2x in a cycle and a DHC will fire once. Despite the faster firing rate, they each fired but one cycle (and thats apparently what matters).

Does anyone have any evidence that disproves this? The data seemed to be legitimate.

In regards to plasma doing more damage, I would have to agree with damage bonus given by the Romulan set. Luckily I already use plasma's on all of my ships besides my escorts. I will make mention of this when I edit the OP next.

Last edited by xgorillapx; 02-20-2013 at 11:44 AM.
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,232
# 125
02-17-2013, 07:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by xgorillapx View Post
Does anyone have any evidence that disproves this? The data seemed to be legitimate.
Unfortunately this data is still subject to change based on build. Under normal circumstances they should be pretty close. Most people have a low Critical Chance rate so the critical severity bonus of dhc is minimal when compared to the proc so it is like splitting hairs. The Romulan set does boost the proc substantially but the Romulan Boffs up the crits (Even post patch changes) so we are now looking at how one arranged the build to make use of what they are after. When we look at crf or csv we are already changing how both work.

Lets take a look at my build with all the boff changes. Even though I have a pretty good plasma proc it can only proc so often and crf already doubles the firing rate of my dhc so it has the similar firing rate as a dc anyway. Since I chose crf as my buff of choice I can then focus on crit which it already at a global level of crth of 14.9% and a crtd of 81.8%.

the crtd is magnitude of the hit. The larger base shot of the single hit then the larger the severity when it does crit. That is not dependant on crth which controls the frequency of the crit. crf makes my dhcs fire twice as often so more shots more chances.

With my crth already at 14.9% I know my odds of criting are already slightly better then 1 in 7 shots. now we need to look at the non dps level. My dhcs at rest hit at 2267.1 per shot. At the same dps a Dc would only do 1133.6 damage per shot. My dhc have a [CrtD]x2 for a severity of +50 to add to my +81.8 for a total of 131.8 severity. I want that on a larger salvo. That is also non-buffed damage. It increases further with apa, gdf, etc.

Unfortunately most data mining cannot account for that. The average build usually has a global crth of about 3%. How you build your build will make any data useless. There are way too many factors to test it all. the only way to do a test is by use base weapons with base stats and they are going to be the same at that point. All base data is useless for practical use.

If I were to go by proc there is no way to up the % from 2.5% other then firing more often so crf is a procs friend however you can only light the person on fire so much or in the case of phasers if you do proc they have a 15 second immunity so the proc is both limited and not scalable. the only proc game worth doing is adding multiple proc The Romulan plasma weapons that have a disruptor proc as well. Then if you add the tetryon glider from the omega set you have 3 procs.

I chose dhcs because crits stack and larger with bigger salvo damage. Procs are always the same.

Edit: Quick sample from my log. These are not in a row but a quick sample while I was doing 1 cure run. Procs can't meet this.

[Combat (Self)] Your Dual Heavy Plasma Cannons - Rapid Fire III deals 11645 (5884) Plasma Damage(Critical) to Borg Negh'Var Warship.
[Combat (Self)] Your Dual Heavy Plasma Cannons - Rapid Fire III deals 10060 (3642) Plasma Damage to Assimilated Carrier.
[Combat (Self)] Your Dual Heavy Plasma Cannons - Rapid Fire III deals 11111 (4023) Plasma Damage to Assimilated Carrier.
[Combat (Self)] Your Dual Heavy Plasma Cannons - Rapid Fire III deals 11137 (4032) Plasma Damage to Assimilated Carrier.
[Combat (Self)] Your Dual Heavy Plasma Cannons - Rapid Fire III deals 19809 (7172) Plasma Damage(Critical) to Assimilated Carrier.
[Combat (Self)] Your Dual Heavy Plasma Cannons - Rapid Fire III deals 18467 (6686) Plasma Damage(Critical) to Assimilated Carrier.
[Combat (Self)] Your Dual Heavy Plasma Cannons - Rapid Fire III deals 20367 (7374) Plasma Damage(Critical) to Assimilated Carrier.

Last edited by robdmc; 02-17-2013 at 08:37 PM.
Captain
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 4,259
# 126
02-17-2013, 09:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by xgorillapx View Post
When creating a new character, you can select the ability "Efficient Captain" if you decide to create an alien. This has the same effect as 2x efficient Boffs.
Don't know if it was mentioned in the other 11 pages, but Joined Trill Captains also have a space trait available, Joined Symbiote which provides

+3.3 Starship Hull Repair
+3.3 Starship Shield Emitters
+3.3 Starship Weapons Training
+3.3 Starship Warp Core Potential
+6.7 Starship Graviton Generators
+6.7 Starship Particle Generator
+6.7 Starship Subspace Decompiler
Ensign
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 1
# 127
02-18-2013, 05:00 PM
So it's in no way worth it to have a dual beam in from if you're tac/escort even for Beam overload?
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,015
# 128
02-19-2013, 06:49 AM
It's fair to call me grumpy, less so to call me a troll, but whatever. Here in the meta accurate information is srs bsns.

Weapon flavor is per cycle. DEM and Tet Glider proc per shot. So you will actually get more benefit from those two from DC's.
Quote:
Originally Posted by robdmc View Post
Lets take a look at my build with all the boff changes. Even though I have a pretty good plasma proc it can only proc so often and crf already doubles the firing rate of my dhc so it has the similar firing rate as a dc anyway. Since I chose crf as my buff of choice I can then focus on crit which it already at a global level of crth of 14.9% and a crtd of 81.8%.
Dear lord she's gorgeous! Not an ounce of fat on her. Seriously, I'd have to use photoshop to post a pic of a build that tight.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,812
# 129
02-19-2013, 07:05 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by redricky View Post
It's fair to call me grumpy, less so to call me a troll, but whatever. Here in the meta accurate information is srs bsns.

Weapon flavor is per cycle. DEM and Tet Glider proc per shot. So you will actually get more benefit from those two from DC's.

Dear lord she's gorgeous! Not an ounce of fat on her. Seriously, I'd have to use photoshop to post a pic of a build that tight.
Minor nitpick but last I heart Tet Glider proc was scaled to deal the same over time on DHCs and DCs, or hits twice as hard per DHC shot with half the shots. DEM is not scaled though AFAIK.

Oh and I don't know for sure but because of the longer firing cycle of the cutting beam vs DHCs I would think it would actually cost you DPS since your DHCs would not fire at optimum power all the time but the proc might make up for that, I don't know that is one of those things impossible to determine mathematically.
Get yer Fleet Gear here!
Military 4 / Engineering 4 / Science 4
Diplomacy 3 / Recruit 3 / Trade 3 / Development 3
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/sh...d.php?t=877071
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,232
# 130
02-19-2013, 05:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by redricky View Post
Dear lord she's gorgeous! Not an ounce of fat on her. Seriously, I'd have to use photoshop to post a pic of a build that tight.
Thanks. It takes a long time.
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