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Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 130
# 21
02-19-2013, 04:39 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by amayakitsune View Post
You can try and tell me I'm paying for access to the base...
No, no, You can be temporarily invited to the fleet for free. You're paying for the ability to buy the ships. You can look around, see that we have the stuff, but our first fleet rank does not have the ability to use fleet provisions. Once the transaction is complete, you may purchase whatever you want, then go on your merry way.
Quote:
Originally Posted by amayakitsune View Post
Theyre charging the same for a Tier 1 Fleet ship as they are for a Tier 5.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dalnar83 View Post
If you are only looking for T3 or T4 shipyards, I'm pretty sure you can get it very cheaplly. If you are looking for T5 shipyard but do not want to play, well make your own fleet and grind to T5.
Quote:
Originally Posted by contrarydecision View Post
I've frequently sent people to other fleets offering 'only' Tier 4 shipyard access because that was all they needed to get the ship they wanted.
Yep. We direct people to other starbases if the customers that approach us want to buy a ship that's of a lower tier than T5, since we can't control from what tier people purchase ships from.

Quote:
Originally Posted by amayakitsune View Post
Youre right... getting to Tier V military isnt cheap... but if what I read today is true... then they didnt do nearly all of the work to get there and just had help from other fleets... (I make no accusations, I cant prove what I was told, only that it is what I was told, but I do believe in knowing all the sides)
The two of us (contrarydecision and myself) actually did all the work in getting it up to Tier 5, aside from the assistance of a third person who drifted to a PvP fleet around Tier 2 or 3 Starbase.

Quote:
Originally Posted by amayakitsune View Post
And ignoring that... who pays someone for previous work theyve done of their own free will? That would be akin to someone fixing a computer for free, at cost to them, and then the next time charging a 100 dollars to swap a 20 dollar part provided by the person who would be paying them.
It's more like someone putting in all the resources needed into developing a pharmaceutical item and then asking people to pay a price for it. The components of the item may not be expensive, but the R&D that went into it was. As was said here:

Quote:
Originally Posted by reginamala78 View Post
Not necessarily picking one side or the other here (25 mil is more than I'd pay for a single ship as well, but thats just personal opinion), but what youre buying isn't the provision. Thats just an overhead cost. What you're paying for is access to something there just aren't many of out there, and the people who built it sunk a lot of money into doing so. They're well within their rights to say "we dropped millions of dil and billions of EC into this. If you want to use it, you need to contribute at least a fraction of what we did." 25 million is the same as about 250k dil, which even just for that T4-to-T5 transition they spent many times over. Provisioning costs are the least signifcant expense in all this.
Also, your analogy is slightly flawed. You never bought a ship for free from us. It would be more akin to just the second half of that. You're welcome to replace the computer part yourself; you need the skills and knowledge of how to do that, of course. A person might just replace that part for that cost, given the materials. It's called the cost of labor, a service provided. Prices aren't based solely on goods, but on the sum of goods and services.

Quote:
Originally Posted by amayakitsune View Post
Im not going to pay you for you having done something that you wanted to do, and did on your own time, under your own free will.
Alright then. We aren't asking you to pay us for doing that. We're only asking you to pay us if you want to use what we did to your benefit (namely, for a ship). No one is stopping you from creating your own T5 Shipyard.

July 12, 2012 - January 24, 2013
It's been a long road, getting from there to here~

Last edited by epsilonia; 02-19-2013 at 04:54 AM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,144
# 22
02-19-2013, 05:09 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by epsilonia View Post

The two of us (contrarydecision and myself) actually did all the work in getting it up to Tier 5, aside from the assistance of a third person who drifted to a PvP fleet around Tier 2 or 3 Starbase.
What happened to the rest of your fleet then? I know of at least two people who joined 1st Aquarius from TFR, di you get to T5 then kick everyone else. Personally I believe it is impossible for two people to get from 0 to T5 in the time frame given. How did you do it otherwise? Please excuse the scepticism and where are the others, Dianna, Dan etc?
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 130
# 23
02-19-2013, 05:16 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mattjohnsonva View Post
What happened to the rest of your fleet then? ... di you get to T5 then kick everyone else
The fleet started as three of us, one drifted to PvP fleets around T2 or T3 Starbase, and the remainder are us two.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mattjohnsonva View Post
I know of at least two people who joined 1st Aquarius from TFR. Please excuse the scepticism and where are the others, Dianna, Dan etc?
Um... Who are Dianna and Dan? And what's TFR?

The price, again, isn't for joining the fleet. We aren't looking for members. We sell the shipyard access for when people need it, and then let them go on their way.

For more information, feel free to visit this thread.

July 12, 2012 - January 24, 2013
It's been a long road, getting from there to here~

Last edited by epsilonia; 02-19-2013 at 05:20 AM.
Lieutenant
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 59
# 24
02-19-2013, 05:32 AM
I don't understand why this is so hard OP, if a lockbox ship is about 80 mil EC, or somewhere up there, and the time it takes to get to a T5 shipyard costs 100x's that, then its clear that a T5 fleet ship will be worth a ton.

25 mil EC isn't that much honestly for a ship like a T5. It costs about 25 dollars for a ship off of the C-Store, you are offering 5 million EC which is roughly about 5 or 6 dollars.

A T5 fleet ship is definitely worth at least 15 or 20 dollars. And with the low supply of them around, that also would double that price if you ask me.

These are all really rough estimates by the way, I just woke up, don't yell it me for some bad math haha, but its still roughly close to just about what the others are saying.

If you don't want to pay, fine, go join a T3 fleet and help them to T5, then you should be able to get one fairly. If not, you'll have to pay the price.
Thankfully my fleet is almost a T5, we should reach it in a week or 2.
"The Easiest Day, was Yesterday"
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,144
# 25
02-19-2013, 05:34 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by epsilonia View Post
The fleet started as three of us, one drifted to PvP fleets around T2 or T3 Starbase, and the remainder are us two.

Um... Who are Dianna and Dan? And what's TFR?

The price, again, isn't for joining the fleet. We aren't looking for members. We sell the shipyard access for when people need it, and then let them go on their way.

For more information, feel free to visit this thread.
OK I have no choice but to believe you, however I will contact the people mentioned to get their side of it, could be it's a different Aquarius fleet.

I have enormous difficulty in understanding how two of you could raise the necessary fleet marks to get to Tier 5, you would literally be doing nothing but fleet marks runs all day every day for months to stand a chance and by doing that there is no way to earn the required Dil which you must have purchased. If that's what you've done then kudos to you sir, you have far more dedication than anyone I have ever met in my life in or out of game.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 130
# 26
02-19-2013, 05:40 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mattjohnsonva View Post
I have enormous difficulty in understanding how two of you could raise the necessary fleet marks to get to Tier 5, you would literally be doing nothing but fleet marks runs all day every day for months to stand a chance and by doing that there is no way to earn the required Dil which you must have purchased. If that's what you've done then kudos to you sir, you have far more dedication than anyone I have ever met in my life in or out of game.
Ugh... don't remind me of how rough the grind for Fleet Marks was. There were quite a few times we nearly burnt out but kept pushing on; we didn't want to end up like the many other fleets that had decided to stop. Also, winning the No-Win Scenario multiple times definitely helped with Fleet Marks.

The dilithium was really easy, though. As a lifetime playing since beta, I had quite a few captains when the Emblem to dilithium conversion occurred.

July 12, 2012 - January 24, 2013
It's been a long road, getting from there to here~

Last edited by epsilonia; 02-19-2013 at 05:43 AM.
Commander
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 273
# 27
02-19-2013, 05:52 AM
The argument against the 25m EC cost seems to be an argument against capitalism. After all that is what we are seeing in action.

Some fleets have made an investment to get the T5 shipyard as quickly as possible, and they have a limited window of opportunity to make money from their foresight and effort. While you may not like the price, the fact remains that there isn't much in the way of compitition.

While I think you could probably find 50 guys willing to pay 1m EC for a ship for every guy willing to 25m, I doubt they want to spend their whole time selling ships.

If you want a cheaper ship, have some patience. As more shipyards come online, the cost will go down. As you said, it's not as if their stats are that much better than the T3 or T4 ships.
Lieutenant
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 75
# 28
02-19-2013, 05:53 AM
dear OP,
when you are of the opinion, that the "provision" is too expensive for a t5 shipyard vessel, feel free to search another fleet with a t5 shipyard, selling their "provisions" for less.
thats how the market works.

good luck
Captain
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 3,144
# 29
02-19-2013, 06:01 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by amayakitsune View Post
I'm not asking to get it for free. But when you tell me that I need to pay for 25 million EC for a ship that is no where near worth that much... or when you tell me that 100k dilithium is equivelant to 8 million EC or that 250 Contraband is worth 10 million EC, Im gonna tell you your prices are bad.
100K minerals for a mere 8M EC is a lowballing, but 250 Catfood is indeed 10M on the open market, so that pricing is quite fair.

Quote:
Originally Posted by amayakitsune View Post
Im an average player... I get to play 1 to 2 hours a night and sometimes more on the weekends. I've never had 25 million EC. Ive never had more than 50K dilithium. Ive only ever had 1 full stack of contraband.
I attribute this problem to your poor financial planning. You shouldn't ever be spending more than you're taking in: Otherwise your accounts aren't increasing. This applies as much to real life as it does in-game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by amayakitsune View Post
The supply is high, but as far as Ive seen the demand is low. You dont charge through the roof when the demand is low, and your supply is high.
Well, the supply isn't really high: They apparently are the only game in town. The demand is certainly there, but I'll agree their price is definitely too high: They're not making nearly as much money as they could be if they charged a lower price and had a higher sales volume as a result. Still, it's their decision to make.
Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 267
# 30
02-19-2013, 07:07 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by doffingcomrade View Post
Well, the supply isn't really high: They apparently are the only game in town. The demand is certainly there, but I'll agree their price is definitely too high: They're not making nearly as much money as they could be if they charged a lower price and had a higher sales volume as a result. Still, it's their decision to make.
To be honest? I could be making more money from this, you're right. But what would I do with it? I've earned what is, even to me, a staggering and nearly stupid amount of EC already. I'm running out of sane places to put it now, in fact. I'm a fairly simple creature, in the end. I have the things I really want in this game. None the less you don't save for today, you save for the future. There will be things I want in the future, obviously. Like when the next lockbox comes around.

Quote:
Originally Posted by amayakitsune View Post
This commodity is not rare... judging by the number of high tier fleet ships Ive seen. They also arent that wonderful... theyd need much better stats for that.

Youre right... getting to Tier V military isnt cheap... but if what I read today is true... then they didnt do nearly all of the work to get there and just had help from other fleets... (I make no accusations, I cant prove what I was told, only that it is what I was told, but I do believe in knowing all the sides)
In reference to what others have said, however, what those people saw were the "broken backs", as one skeptic put it to me in conversation, of alt accounts, the occasional friend wishing to donate in appreciation for being allowed use of the shipyards as we were going up the tiers, and and an arrangement with another fleet to share our respective T5 resources. Why more fleets didn't get together and specialize to the benefit of all involved I don't know. I'm still trying to find the fleet that had the sense to go T5 Science first and corner THAT market...

But, right, where was I? You're not just buying "a provision", to be blunt. As others have explained you're purchasing access to something you either will never have, in the case of a bunch of small fleet populations, or may be anywhere between weeks to months away from but don't feel like waiting for. They're not mind blowingly amazing, no. As explained, they are a luxury good. One that is priced accordingly. The fact you do not personally feel that it is worth the listed cost does not mean that others do not find the cost more than acceptable. Its also perfectly fine if you don't personally feel that they are worth that cost. Like I said before, I don't try to pressure people into sales. I let them decide for themselves. I barely even advertise now at days, I just let word of mouth bring in more customers. Word of mouth has been quite kind so far, too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by amayakitsune View Post
Im not going to pay you for you having done something that you wanted to do, and did on your own time, under your own free will. Im gonna pay you for exactly what Im going to be using. And Im not going to pay large prices when it isnt worth it.
I've had customers out thank me for doing this. They gave up hope of their fleets ever reaching tier 5 even before the fleet mark changes occurred, and I've had several contact me in a panic sense then wondering if I was going to raise prices due to it. In the end we are providing a service. A luxury service. You're welcome to not want or pay for that service, but please stop trying to frame it as something unethical when it's merely something you don't deem cost effective.

As a note, I say "I" instead of "we" a lot here because while it was the two of us who got this far, I'm typically the one dealing with the sales. I'm on more often, at more normal hours, and am more willing to deal with the public and wade into Zonechat than my partner here. ;D
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