Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 881
# 91
02-14-2013, 05:34 PM
This thread is bad and you should feel bad.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,079
# 92
02-15-2013, 05:46 AM
It is all about the ratios. Once your crit chance and severity get high enough even [Dmg] mods become useful! This really is kind of a common sense type thing.
STO's F2P is basically an inferior experience for the masses at no cost being subsidized by a handful of whales seeking whatever it is that motivates them to spend hundreds if not thousands on a game.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,192
# 93
02-15-2013, 06:01 AM
Speaking about accuracy. My torpedoes lately miss like hell. Not sure if its HYT3 specific issue, but seeing regularly 3 out of 4 torpedoes flying aways makes me always feel sad.
Lieutenant
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 37
# 94
02-15-2013, 06:21 AM
Now i took some time to read the whole thread and I did, twice. Either I'm tired from work, either I'm really dumb and should be worried, but in the end I haven't understood anything about where we stand now with modifiers
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,311
# 95
02-15-2013, 06:28 AM
All things said and done, Acc modifiers work in all situations. CrtD & CrtH work in specific situations.

I personally have spent money on respec tokens like they are going out of fashion and ec that would make most cringe testing all this for the last 2 years.

My conclusion has always ended up being that you need a minimum of 2 Acc modifiers on weapons.

Simply put, you need to hit them to damage them.
aka NazHuggyBear2

"No, there is no real problem with P2W in STO. Obviously, if you fight against someone with an equal level of skill in the game, better equipment will give you an edge. But usually, it is the skill level that determines the outcome, not the P2W." - Sprinkles
Career Officer
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 269
# 96
02-19-2013, 04:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by arctos1717 View Post
Now i took some time to read the whole thread and I did, twice. Either I'm tired from work, either I'm really dumb and should be worried, but in the end I haven't understood anything about where we stand now with modifiers
....Good I'm not the only one......geez I was just simply trying to find out if my last few million EC was worth it.........Having the Accuracy modifier just felt like I was doing more damage, v.s. the CritH & CritD modifiers.......

Last edited by thumpyecho; 02-19-2013 at 04:11 PM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,393
# 97
02-19-2013, 05:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by thumpyecho View Post
....Good I'm not the only one......geez I was just simply trying to find out if my last few million EC was worth it.........Having the Accuracy modifier just felt like I was doing more damage, v.s. the CritH & CritD modifiers.......
I can answer that question. It's actually one of the easier questions. Acc on weapons only comes in chunks of 10%. Now I know I said you could never turn that into a meaningful number without a Def value to compare it against. And that is true, you can't.

But you can certainly calculate a range of hit rates across multiple values of defense that you could expect to encounter in the game.

If you did that, you'd find that Acc was hands down the games single best stat to have on your weapons. It outperforms any other stat for all values where Acc<Def.

As the difference between Acc and Def decreases, the value of Acc increases. This means that acc is on the opposite end of a diminishing returns formula.

The miss rate is capped at 75%. Well before you approach that point the graph for hit rate begins to flatten out. You'll never see that in the game. The lowest practical hit rate in the game is about 45%.

As the miss rate approaches 0% on the other hand, the curve sharpens.

Picture a graph of all the hit rates. Imagine your sliding 3 frames linked together along that graph. Each frame represents the 10% acc mod on a wep. Inside each frame is a number. That number would represent the net gain in hit rate from that frame.

If you pushed that frame all the way over towards the left, next to 45%, that being about the worst case you could see in the game, each frame would read about 6%. If you pushed them towards the center, you would start to see those values change. From left to right you would see 6%, 6%, 7%, and as you came up against 100% you'd find 6%, 7% and 8%. It never goes bad as a stat, right up to the point where you reach 100% hit rate.

On weapons you can only get crit h in 2% chunks. You can get crit h on consoles. As long as hit rate is below 100% the acc mod will outperform the crit h. Especially if your clever enough to grab the consoles.

But once you hit 100%, or AccOverflow, that changes. Acc as a wep stat has neglible value. It doesn't convert to damage nearly as effeciently as Crit Hit or Severity.

But you can never get there by adding Acc. You can only get there by robbing defense. That was the initial intent of the game. Tacs would need an assist if they were ever to truly hammer a target. But if you have +30 Acc that would seem like thirty less defense you would need to rob correct? And that's absolutely true. 30 Acc on weps and 15 to 25% bonus accuracy on your character means your hitting at very high rates most of the time anyway. Tacs no longer need much in the way of assists to pound things senseless.

So you would balance out what you had or what your team had for slows and holds as you can calculate easily how much def those can rob, and add just enough Acc to make it work. Then you did the crit dance. Easy Peasy. And you can STILL do that now. Acc isn't a BAD stat to get. It's the best really. If you aren't a student of holds, slows, etc, you'd better get Acc.

Just it's SOOO easy to just rob ALL the defense, stomp your way into acc overflow and dump all your points into Crit H consoles, Severity, and Damage on weapons.

Events in STO seem to happen very slowly, or so fast most people can't really believe that it actually happend. But if you get DHC LOLarons all over you with compressed CRF's and you see some pretty crit strings right before you vanish, you can bet you lost engine power, your defense dropped just enough for your attacker to enjoy AccOverflow, and you get the respawn.

Because really, and like I said I don't have 1000's of samples yet, but in AccOverflow land my results don't seem to match the values that the calculations seem to return. In any case, ships die VERY fast.

Cheers and enjoy the best stat in the game while it lasts!
If I don't respond to posts on this forum don't be offended. I don't sub or follow any of them.

Last edited by thissler; 02-19-2013 at 05:15 PM.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,760
# 98
02-19-2013, 05:23 PM
^ very good post. it might conflict with the thread tittle though.


if you end up dealing the majority of your damage in bursts wile you have someone's movement controlled, then anything but acc is what you want. but if your running and gunning, dog fighting and chasing, acc just works best.
gateway links-->Norvo Tigan, Telis Latto Ruwon, Sochie Heim, Solana Soleus
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,393
# 99
02-19-2013, 05:37 PM
True its just that the point of most of the game is to minimize the difference between your acc and thier def when attacking, and of course the other way around when being attacked. You really can't understand these stats on thier own. At least not very well. So really its proven that's there's two ways to go about this, most folks will fall somewhere in the middle. Its the most valid way to operate.

I still feel some ships suffer unduly due to this. Its far to easy to rob thier defence. If you want I'll get you a spreadsheet. Or just make one you do those anyways. The formula from BRJ is all we have.

Cheers mate maybe catch up with u later
If I don't respond to posts on this forum don't be offended. I don't sub or follow any of them.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,079
# 100
02-19-2013, 09:02 PM
If I understand this correctly this is the basic logic.

1: Damage without kill is pretty much worthless

2: Killing target that actively has a high bonus defense is rare

3: Removing targets high bonus defense is not very rare/difficult

4: Killing target without high bonus defense is much more likely.

5: Crit is more effective than Acc vs target without high bonus defense.

Therefore it is better to take a weapon mod that is more effective during a higher majority of your 'kill target' time or opportunity than it is to take weapon mod that is more effective during the 'cant kill target' time.

Makes perfect sense to me, now where did I put my Chrono torps and Denoobs....
STO's F2P is basically an inferior experience for the masses at no cost being subsidized by a handful of whales seeking whatever it is that motivates them to spend hundreds if not thousands on a game.
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