Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,292
# 11
02-19-2013, 07:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by antoniosalieri View Post
I know you love and probaly have played the alpha bop more then me (well perhaps) but I will still disagree with you... crtd is terrible bottom line. It barely increases the dmg of crits at all. Seriously its 20% of the CRITICAL dmg... meaning that if

1000 is the base
1500 is the crit (not assuming any skill points, or other bonuses)
with 40% CrtD that 1500 would in fact be 1700...

That is TERRIBLE considering you are giving up any proc and any other mods.

Yes Disruptor and Phaser are both better options. There is no such thing as a bad phaser proc... if it hits you are with out a shield while your getting alphaed... or with out and engine and any defense... or with out any aux heals. Even a weapon proc is ok for the confusion factor alone.

Sorry AP weapons have always been the worst option for any ship including 5s or I'm running kill builds.
Since launch for the BOP. I'll Crit over 80k. I top out over 100% crit severity.

1000 base.
900 forseverity.
1900 total.

Crit D is straight up additive. If your base crit is 50% (that's the norm) adding ten percent on weps changes your crit severity to....60%.

AP has always been the best choice for spike damage in the game.
I hit something, it dies. Or it doesn't. It's ONE shot for crying out loud. And 4 torps.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...TxIjjV_qNBo8WS


See? One shot. Be serious now I have HOURS of video like that. Are you really considering telling me that tip tap tapping them and trying to debuff them with disruptors or holding out for a phaser proc is the way to go?

As far as the confusion factor, watch the video. I'll bet money most of those guys suffered a bit of that.

Cheers!
If I don't respond to posts on this forum don't be offended. I don't sub or follow any of them.
Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 3,056
# 12
02-19-2013, 07:40 PM
Op asked about DHC options... not overload options.

For a beam overload torp strike frankly it doesn't matter what weapon type you use... it either crits and gets a facing or it doesn't.

For DHC and I would assume that means hes planning 3-4 dhc... AP would be about the worst mistake he could make.
/channel_join Tyler Durden
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,292
# 13
02-19-2013, 07:56 PM
You're correct of course but he PM'd me and since he had this thread already going I directed here.

And 40%+ additional crit severity is how you get that facing, and a bunch of hull. So it does matter.

And no, AP's STILL wouldn't be the worst mistake. If so I spent a year using DHC's and CRF wasting my time not knowing all the ships blowing up just plain didn't know any better.

Its a good damage increase without increasing time.. If you even have a 10% crit rate and in your "perfect 100" shots in AccOverflow you have 10 crits. At 1000k base damage that gives us what 5000k in extra crit damage? Okay. On weps I could add.....2% Crit Hit. So....1k damage. If I add 10% to my severity I get the same net damage but with fewer crits. But I'm NOT adding that I'm adding 40% PLUS I'm adding to ALL my base damage. So I'm netting another 4000 in extra crit damage.

But some players are reporting gaining 20% Crit Hit from consoles and Boffs or Doffs! Is this true? If it is think about it. Generally, in a system with two variables dependant on the other, as the amount of ONE variable goes up does its value relative to the other variable go up or down?

And really hey there's a lot of procs that can have STUNNING effects on gameplay. In the timeframe for a BOP alpha of any type they just aren't relevant to play to.

GREAT stuff for escorts. Cruisers, Scis and the like.

Now watch the video and tell me how pretty I am when I blow things up.
If I don't respond to posts on this forum don't be offended. I don't sub or follow any of them.
Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 3,056
# 14
02-19-2013, 08:31 PM
20%+ crit is only achievable by using CrtHx3 weaponry for the extra 6%... and ya for an alpha strike bop I would think that would be the way to go frankly.

CrtD 40% isn' 40% extra dmg... its 20%

CrtD in every test I have ever run is a boost to the Critical portion of the dmg only.

Meaning 20% crtd... really makes your critical hit hit 10% harder in total.

I don't dispute the AP beam bank working great for overloads. I agree with the build you have its one of the best... likely the best option for the One shot overload that will never proc anyway.

However on a DHC alpha strike build where you plan to decloak and ratta tat with 4 DHC and a turret or 2.... then no AP is a terrible choice. The CrtD Does almost nothing for you... the mods are terrible... and Even on one volley of cannon fire 2.5% chance to proc is very high. I would say that if you where to run a 4 DHC alpha bop... on with phasers crthx3 and one with AP DHC with 40% crtd... you will score more kills with the phasers.
Once you start firing that many weapons the higher crit rate from the crths Will in fact start increasing your Burst... with the AP your crit chance will be around 14% if you max other items. That will run you around a 70% chance to land a crit (not accounting for tractors ect) in a 2 volley pop.... with crthx3 your chancers go up to close to 90%... as far as landing multiple crits.... there is no contest... at 14% its still a nice healthy 40% or so... but with the 20% CrtH weapons you start hitting 60% chance numbers on multiple crits.

As far as the weapon proc... on a 2 volley tap from a 4 dhc 2 turret setup... you are looking at a 26% chance to proc in there... if that proc lands in the first round of fire (15% chance) the chances of ending your target are quite high.

Now having said all that...
Running the AP overload with the torps... is just a ton more fun. lol
/channel_join Tyler Durden
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,292
# 15
02-20-2013, 06:12 AM
I dunno, maybe try your tests again? Severity is a stat. Adds 10, 20, or 30 to critical severity. Your critical severity is 50. Now its 60. And that's how it works out when I measure my crits. Otherewise there would be no way I could hit the damage level I do.

So I don't know what to say about that.

And focus on the 100% Hit Rate. As the hit rate approaches 100% that's when crit rate starts to shine. That's when all the fun things start to happen. Not because you have 4 DHC's with High Crit H. We're no longer discussing 'if' we hit. We're no longer discussing 'if' we crit. We've moved straight on 'how much and how hard'. Once your in AccOverflow that's all your looking at.

And even using your numbers over the course of a hundred shots the output would be within a couple pts. Just make a spreadsheet and see. And don't forget to add in the increase to base damage as well. It isn't insignificant. At a hundred percent hit rate it's pretty chunky. A 'perfect hundred shots' mind you.

Okay let's just stop. Just take a deep breath and think. Would the Devs put a Mod in the game that had essentially zero value? Think about it. Would they take a Mod that was just such absolute garbage and then stuff such HUGE gobs of it into the premier PVP weapons? And then Keep adding it?

Forget what you think you know. Objectively answer that. What you're trying to say is that Crit H never goes bad in levels that are achievable in the game.

What makes more sense? That they can't do simple math and your right or that severity works the way I've stated and they really can do simple math? So if you're right you should be enraged and post every day that the devs not only put a stat with no value in the game, but that they insist on putting it on all the new items!

Speaking of that. You do realize that the way you are suggesting this works is not consistent with any of the other mods in the game? It isn't even consistent with the other items that add severity. Like the new consoles. Or even the old consoles. Go to sector space. Open the tab. Look at crit severity. Grab a console that changes severity by X. Take it on or off. Watch your tab value change by X.

And let's talk about sample size for a bit. Lets stick to the perfect world. I know that a 1% crit rate doesn't mean that one shot out of a hundred will be a crit. If we try to hash this out based on the huge variances you could expect in small samples (say a burst) we won't be happy. Lets stick to hypothetically HUGE HUGE test sizes and then just take a small perfect sample. This is valid. We know that in actual play we may see only a few crits, or we may see many of them, that's the fun factor of crit play I guess.

LOL what a mess of a post! I need coffee.

Cheers!
If I don't respond to posts on this forum don't be offended. I don't sub or follow any of them.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 232
# 16
02-20-2013, 07:21 AM
You two are really confusing....thank god my tac toon is new and will take awhile to get the 200k fleet creds she needs to unlock store (fleet policy) and start making lasting decisions.

though for now, for kerrat and the lack of antipro dhcs on the exchange, i need a suggestion....i did pick up a purple xi crit d dual beam disruptor (thats what netted the 35k crit and the poofy cloud of a fed) im still not using torps as this will require a respec as i put nothing in torp specialization....(the last box for crits i believe)

BTW i meant to ask, what is it about the fleet norgh that compelled you to choose and fly that over the fleet ho sus?

Last edited by beefsupreme79; 02-20-2013 at 07:23 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 3,056
# 17
02-20-2013, 07:50 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by thissler View Post
Okay let's just stop. Just take a deep breath and think. Would the Devs put a Mod in the game that had essentially zero value? Think about it. Would they take a Mod that was just such absolute garbage and then stuff such HUGE gobs of it into the premier PVP weapons? And then Keep adding it?
Not just one mod that is pointless... but in fact 2... DMG and CrtD.

I am not saying that your ship stats don't say 20% more when you look at your little ship screen... I am saying get a parser and look at the amount of dmg added by comparing 2 weapons that have zero difference accept one mod... find a cheap dmgx2 crth and a dmgx2 crtd dhc and fire it at something then go look at the numbers... CrtD will do 10% more dmg on Crit hits only... if the Crth hits 1000 on a crit the crtD will hit 1100... thats it that's all... its a bump in dmg for sure... but no its not that great. As for ACC overflow the overflow numbers are really not that great either... but if thats what you want you should be running acc weapons shouldn't you ?

In any event... there is NO amount of CrtH that will not improve your DPS more then any of the other mods honestly... I'm not making this up. The diminishing returns point would be well north of 60% crit.

Cryptic has given us a system where we fire multiple weapons... well most of us not your one beam bop.

For your one beam bop... I am agreeing with you... CrtD is as good as any other option and likely the best option with the acception of ACC... frankly for what your doing I think ACC would still be the way to go to ensure some consistancy. (assuming ACC is even working with BOL anyway)

1 - ( ( 1 - x ) ^ y )
Is a simple probability formula.... it will simply tell you the chances of landing ONE crit in a round of fire.... seeing as we are talking about BURST dmg here lets reduce it down to the min number of shots you will get off in a burst....

A 4 DHC burst will get off around 2 rounds in an alpha... so 8 Rolls right.

With AP DHC (I'm not talking beam overloads here)... you will be running around a 14% crit rate with an added 20% dmg on each crit hit (that would be Crtdx2)... Any other weapon type with Crthx3... will be around 20% crit rate... Thats an 84% on the Crth 70% on the CrtD... to land at least one crit... which we both know won't kill anyone... the Math for multiple Crits in 8 rolls is more complicated but bottom line there ends up being around a 30% better chance of landing multiple crits on the CrtH.

So bottom line Crth WILL out dmg the CrtD weaponry by simply landing MORE crits... they will be 10% weaker but they will happen 20-30% more frequently... and YES in a single Alpha opening from a CANNON escort... the CrtH will score more kills.

For the beam build ya stick with CrtD man.
/channel_join Tyler Durden

Last edited by antoniosalieri; 02-20-2013 at 07:53 AM.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 232
# 18
02-20-2013, 07:57 AM
and there is a great chance u wont crit on that bo3 and not deface that sheild......than thy3 is wasted? i am not doubting you re one hit loveliness thissler, im just curious how many times do you not make that one hit pop that we see in videos. what is the success rate of any given alpha run?

i only ask because a full buffed alpha is once every 4 minutes due to tac fleet. just want to get some percentages on success

Last edited by beefsupreme79; 02-20-2013 at 08:01 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 3,056
# 19
02-20-2013, 07:58 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by beefsupreme79 View Post
You two are really confusing....thank god my tac toon is new and will take awhile to get the 200k fleet creds she needs to unlock store (fleet policy) and start making lasting decisions.

though for now, for kerrat and the lack of antipro dhcs on the exchange, i need a suggestion....i did pick up a purple xi crit d dual beam disruptor (thats what netted the 35k crit and the poofy cloud of a fed) im still not using torps as this will require a respec as i put nothing in torp specialization....(the last box for crits i believe)

BTW i meant to ask, what is it about the fleet norgh that compelled you to choose and fly that over the fleet ho sus?
If you are running a beam overload one shot setup like Thissler you probaly want to go with a beam with CrtD or Acc... or a mix of them... if you are planning to run a more traditional Multiple DHC build... then go with CrtH.

I would assume he choose the Norgh because it has 3 Lt Commanders... it used to be weak on hull but it got a buff recently and has around the same hull numbers as the brel. Its a great ship. It works well as a One shot wonder build like Thissler runs and it works well as a more standard Alpha Strike bop as well.

As for torps as long as you have points in the base Tier 2 skill your fine to use them... the spec tier 5 points are nice... and if you respec you might want 3-6 in there... but Even with out torps will work fine.
/channel_join Tyler Durden
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 232
# 20
02-20-2013, 08:10 AM
also thissler, in ur vids i see you are using a ningtao skin....how did you get that on a fleet norgh?
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