Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 891
# 2401
02-20-2013, 09:06 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by warbird001 View Post
You can steal something from a shop, because the shopkeeper has left it open on the window-side, doesn't mean you should...
Apples and oranges comparison.

I don't have free access to the items in the shop without paying.

I have access to all of the content in STO. I even have access to the poorly designed and implemented (ie: exploitable) content in STO.

In any case, Dan has already said it was their mistake to implement FMs in such a blatantly exploitable manner and was further their mistake to squash their poor design decision in such a heavy handed manner.

While there is an ethical component in all of this, I don't think players using the poorly developed system they are offered for use is comparable to theft.

Also, if you look back thru the forums, several players mentioned when Cryptic attached FMs to the IOR that it was easily exploitable, yet Cryptic let it stand. At some point, the shop keeper is responsible for his poor decisions.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 783
# 2402
02-20-2013, 09:06 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bloctoad View Post
You forget what they took away and withheld while offering the whiskey and polio blanket in the first place. We should never have been relegated to clinging to either.
I have forgotten nothing. I was never concerned with how long fleet holding progression takes. They can design their systems however they will. We have a choice as to whether or not to partake in those systems' gameplay.

If they want fleet holding progression to ignore small fleets, then so be it. The small fleet has three choices:

1 - Grow their fleet with enough active members to more efficiently manage the amount of fleet marks and dilithium needed to progress.

2 - Play it as it is and keep complaining about how hard it is to progress because the Fleet Mark payouts are not good enough.

3 - Don't play it at all.

I am not saying that this is how it should be. I believe in fair content progression for everyone. If they were to refer to fleets with 25 members or less a "squadron" and introduce squadron holdings that are smaller installations but can provide useful things for a more open-ended endgame, and these holdings were balanced for five to 25 players the way fleet holdings are balanced for 25 players and up, then the gap will be closed. Squadrons could still pursue the starbase with its current extreme difficulty of progression. But fleets would not be allowed to pursue Squadron Holdings as they would pose no challenge whatsoever.

I have also suggested a method that could be used to scale Starbase advancement requirements for fleet size, but I do not feel like reiterating it here and now. Suffice to say that it IS possible to do this without setting up an exploit.
I am of the opinion that Cryptic cannot because PWE will not...
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 622
# 2403
02-20-2013, 09:09 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by warbird001 View Post
But that does raise a point, its not Cryptic's fault that the players are always looking for the next exploit. Even if one is there, doesn't mean the players should actually use it. You can steal something from a shop, because the shopkeeper has left it open on the window-side, doesn't mean you should...
Equating using the Foundry as outlined and approved by Cryptic as an alternate source of gameplay to stealing from a shopkeeper is simply lazy and intellectually irresponsible.
All cloaks should be canon.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 149
# 2404
02-20-2013, 09:13 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by knuhteb5 View Post
Take er easy! Holy Roddenberry are people ever mad! Guys, at least they've said they are going to do something. That's a partial win in my book for small fleets and advocates for restoring the old IOR rewards. Better late than never.

Edit: That being said, I'm not going to hold my breath here. I don't expect a grand solution. It will most likely be a half baked band-aid that will somewhat appease the mobs until they can institute a more permanent solution.
After 3 YEARS of broken promises and you still believe them!

Not I...

Not until I actually see the code working with new content, and the KDF faction fully finished, on Tribble and then on the Holodeck!

3 YEARS of broken promises does NOT equal giving them my faith and trust anymore... OR MY MONEY!

PWE/Cryptic Where are you? Why are you not listening to your Customers?

PWE/Cryptic Stop the FARM, Bring back the FUN!

Zeus
Creator of Olympus - Home of the Gods
"I don't test my code often, but when I do I test it in Production"The most interesting dev in the world

I rather be a fence post in Texas than the King of PWE

Last edited by zeus16nbs; 02-20-2013 at 09:15 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 622
# 2405
02-20-2013, 09:14 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sirsitsalot View Post
I have forgotten nothing. I was never concerned with how long fleet holding progression takes. They can design their systems however they will. We have a choice as to whether or not to partake in those systems' gameplay.

If they want fleet holding progression to ignore small fleets, then so be it. The small fleet has three choices:

1 - Grow their fleet with enough active members to more efficiently manage the amount of fleet marks and dilithium needed to progress.

2 - Play it as it is and keep complaining about how hard it is to progress because the Fleet Mark payouts are not good enough.

3 - Don't play it at all.

I am not saying that this is how it should be. I believe in fair content progression for everyone. If they were to refer to fleets with 25 members or less a "squadron" and introduce squadron holdings that are smaller installations but can provide useful things for a more open-ended endgame, and these holdings were balanced for five to 25 players the way fleet holdings are balanced for 25 players and up, then the gap will be closed. Squadrons could still pursue the starbase with its current extreme difficulty of progression. But fleets would not be allowed to pursue Squadron Holdings as they would pose no challenge whatsoever.

I have also suggested a method that could be used to scale Starbase advancement requirements for fleet size, but I do not feel like reiterating it here and now. Suffice to say that it IS possible to do this without setting up an exploit.
Some people seem content to treat this as a stand-alone issue. All of this is cumulative. I do not refer merely to the Fleet Mark issue presently at hand but the entire gamut of issues this game still has. Were it not for the past three years (five if you date back to Jack Emmert's statement at GenCon) of continuous misinformation, lack of information, stealth changes, unfixed bugs, et al--I honestly don't see becoming the major debacle this has become. People are simply fed up with the development team and rightfully so.
All cloaks should be canon.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 658
# 2406
02-20-2013, 09:15 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by warbird001 View Post
But that does raise a point, its not Cryptic's fault that the players are always looking for the next exploit. Even if one is there, doesn't mean the players should actually use it. You can steal something from a shop, because the shopkeeper has left it open on the window-side, doesn't mean you should...
But I think for a lot of players, myself included, the "exploits" were entirely a reaction to the excessive grind in the game. Back in S6 I would do a clickie, Academy daily, and B'Tran and immediately dump 5000 dilithium into fleet holdings, and then start really playing after perhaps 20 minutes (ok, I kind of liked the exploration part, but it's not the really good stuff). I wasn't keeping any of it to convert to Zen or anything, it was all going to the new grind they'd dumped on all my friends and me. With the AFK missions I would set them up and then do my homework, and again have some time to actually play the game afterwards. The simple fact is no one wants to grind the devs preferred content enough times to actually get anywhere, because we want to have time to enjoy the parts of the game that we prefer. Every "exploit" has been an attempt to facilitate that. You're right that people shouldn't be trying to cheat in the game (although how far towards that these really go is ambiguous), but at the same time we really shouldn't need to, and as things stand we pretty much do if we don't get to play 8 hours a day and want to actually have some fun.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 185
# 2407
02-20-2013, 09:18 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by warbird001 View Post
But that does raise a point, its not Cryptic's fault that the players are always looking for the next exploit. Even if one is there, doesn't mean the players should actually use it. You can steal something from a shop, because the shopkeeper has left it open on the window-side, doesn't mean you should...
Players, are human. Players, also want to have fun. When you load up a game with a lot of grind, that takes a while to complete, it takes away from that fun. At a certain point, a person, a player will look for the fastest route to the goal. Cryptic created a mission, that not only was the single best way to get fleet marks in the game, they added Dilithium to it, then, blundered even more and put it on the shortest cooldown in the game. Cryptic gave them the means to the goal. They players, used it. This isn't rocket science, so to speak. when you hand out the rewards at the level they did, to not expect people to take advantage of it, is ludicrous.

Cryptic put in the grind, then expanded it to be worse.
Cryptic put in the IOR, then put it on the 30 minute timer.

Blaming the player here, for using the best mission in the game to get what he wants, is what they want you to do. They want you to forget they made it. Don't want people to exploit something in your game? Don't make it the prime target in a VERY exploitable section of your game. Players just want to have fun. Massive grind isn't fun.

Case in point, Battleship Royal Rumble was my mission of choice, since I want to do space combat, I would take it easy and try different things. I averaged 20-25 minutes. Some days, I'd play it twice. Am I exploiting, or using the mission the way they designed it?

The facts aren't hard to see, though they'd like you to miss them.
They made the foundry. They made Dil. They made the grind. They expanded the grind. They made the "fleet" missions have abysmal rewards. They don't add/update the missions. They added the single best mission in the game. They blame us, for using it.

See something wrong with that?
Next time you log in, ask yourself this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dastahl View Post
If you can't have fun, then what is the point?
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 149
# 2408
02-20-2013, 09:26 AM
Originally Posted by dastahl

"If you can't have fun, then what is the point?"


Okay Dan We, the customers/players, CAN'T have fun with grinding on your "farm"!

So What is the Point Dan?


PWE/Cryptic Where are you? Why are you not listening to your Customers?

PWE/Cryptic Stop the FARM, Bring back the FUN!

Zeus
Creator of Olympus - Home of the Gods
"I don't test my code often, but when I do I test it in Production"The most interesting dev in the world

I rather be a fence post in Texas than the King of PWE
Survivor of Romulus
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,050
# 2409
02-20-2013, 09:36 AM
most foundry mission ive played are/were story missions and some not alot kill accolade missions that i set on elite i never played the one click missions i play for fun not just to click and walk away.
thing is for me that there could of fixed one of 100s if not 1000s of bugs instead of messing with some thing players enjoy.
you should never take a reward away for something and not offer some thing in return. no one has said to me for months its hard to get dilith most people i know have 2-3 days worth to refine.
even new people to my kdf fleet, say after 2-3 days of hitting lvl 50 and start team up with us wow its so easy to get dilith why didnt i make a kdf toon sooner.
1 last thing a exploit that does realy p*** me off AFK farmers in all the mark missions that cryptic seem so willing ignore.

maybe there should add a doff mission to refine 1000 extra dilith for the extra cost of 250 ore could put a 48 hour CD on it.
Welcome to bugs online were we only fix the bugs you like, and will ignore the ones you hate.
These are the voyages of the USS Farmville. Her 5 year mission is to boldly farm where no one has farmed before.
Say No to ARK

Last edited by wilbor2; 02-20-2013 at 10:07 AM. Reason: missed somthing out
Career Officer
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 585
# 2410
02-20-2013, 09:36 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by warbird001 View Post
But that does raise a point, its not Cryptic's fault that the players are always looking for the next exploit.
.

Yes it is Cryptic's fault. They are the ones that put in this horrible grind. I defend the rep system as a nice concept, but having to grind marks to unlock a tier so you can gain the ability to grind more marks to unlock an item in that tier? And at those prices? If you don't want players to exploit, don't put in a system tht encourages it. Don't set ingame prices that encourage it. Don't set C-store prices that encourage it.
Most JJ Trek hate = IDIC fail.
Quote:
Most who don't like the new Star Trek either didn't like TOS, don't remember TOS, or didn't see TOS
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