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Cryptic Studios Team
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,101
For some time now, we have been kicking around the idea of instituting map-wide variables on all PvP maps we currently have in the game, in order to apply global changes to the way that certain powers operate. While this wouldn't be considered a true "fix" for PvP overall, we feel that, if we got the numbers right, it could go a long way towards addressing some points of primary concern among both players that are both Casual and Hardcore PvP enthusiasts.

Before I go into the details of what's so far been considered, I want to make it absolutely clear that these are only IDEAS, and stating them here for feedback is absolutely NOT a guarantee that they will be implemented. And even if they are, there's a good chance they will not see the light of day, even on Tribble, until after our May Update.

With that in mind, here are a couple of the map-wide modifications we've been considering:

1) Max Hitpoints/Shields Increases

This was originally considered for Ground PvP specifically, but we later began to wonder if it might be appropriate for Space as well. For now, we're considering very large increases - as much as 200%-300% of your base hitpoint and shield amounts.

We fully realize that changing this one factor, without modifying powers, would fundamentally alter the flow of battle. It would completely change the intrinsic values and opportunity costs associated with many powers, as well as changing the perceived value of cooldowns and escape tactics.

The recent thread titled "Spike vs. Pressure" paints a picture that seems to indicate that this would end up being a bad thing for Space PvP, resulting in the very real possibility of matches where ships never died. However, we've yet to see any evidence that this would be anything other than a good thing for Ground PvP.


2) Healing -OR- Damage Output Decreases

Unlike the previous option, which would have a fairly equal impact on both Damage and Healing effectiveness, these ideas are more surgical, affecting either one or the other, at disparate levels.

Applying Healing effectiveness reduction to PvP maps would lead to extremely volatile matches unless it came hand-in-hand with limitations to Spike Damage potential. While limiting overall damage output would likely be a bad idea because it impacts "Pressure" DPS more profoundly than "Spike" -- not a great idea to exacerbate this issue. This probably means that this option is even less likely to be a good idea, than the previous notion. At least for Space PvP.


3) Reduction in Status Ability Effectiveness -OR- the Resistance Thereof

Presume that the term "Status" refers to just about anything that is not Damage. Buffs, Debuffs, Repel, Disable, Confuse, etc.

To be frank, we're fairly well satisfied with how effective most powers are in PvE in terms of their ability to inflict Status effects, and manipulate the flow of an encounter. As well as players' options to resist the effects of these abilities when they are used by NPCs. That's not to say that they are perfect, or that there isn't room for improvement, but we're OK with them as they are. Generally speaking.

In PvP however, the combination of extreme skill stacking and high resistance factors, cause us difficulty when attempting to find the correct balance point of an ability's effectiveness. We have therefore theorized that allowing us to limit one side of the equation or the other, ONLY in PvP, might allow us to tune these abilities in a more focused, controlled manner.


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So, those are the main ideas we've had so far. We'd like to hear some open-minded feedback on what consequences any of the above could potentially have on the viability and flow of PvP combat, and its popularity among Veterans and non-Veterans alike. Keep in mind that we recognize the potential risk involved with making global changes of this nature, so you can bet your self-sealing stem bolts that we'd be testing any map-wide alterations extensively on Tribble before sending them into a Live environment (we've already investigated how to control this).
-=-=-=-=-=-
Jeremy Randall
Cryptic - Systems Design
"Play smart!"
Quote:
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Kurland here...
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,325
# 2
02-25-2013, 09:40 AM
My mind asploded.

Would we, The Community be heard when these changes went to Tribble? If some of this stuff went live and had adverse affects it'll be a long winded process unpicking it.

Last edited by aquitaine985; 02-25-2013 at 09:44 AM.
Survivor of Romulus
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 234
# 3
02-25-2013, 09:44 AM
so would this be like adding e.x. Mutara Nebual to a pvp map? That would be cool to say the least, Star Trek Armada had diffrent Nebulas u could fly into and get a bonus or a debuff while in the Nebula.

~The Eleventh Order~
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Survivor of Romulus
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 234
# 4
02-25-2013, 09:45 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by aquitaine985 View Post
My mind asploded.
quick reg is confused steal his GPL

~The Eleventh Order~
11thOrder Youtube
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 964
# 5
02-25-2013, 09:48 AM
This will not fix a flawed system imo.
The Somraw, K'tinga, D'Kyr, D7, Kumari, and T'Varo are all older than the Constitution Refit and yet they are tier 5. The rule needs to change.
Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 3,472
# 6
02-25-2013, 09:49 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by borticuscryptic View Post
Snip
I can't speak to Ground PvP... so I'll comment as far as space goes.

1) This is would be a massive cope out. This is only needed because of the lacking AI on the PvE side... where the only way to balance your "encounters" is to greatly inflate hit points.

2) I know you stated the first idea is related to ground... and I can't speak to that. Such a change in Space would be game breaking... matches would really never end. Although I wouldn't have to call time out if I needed to take a Potty break so that's good.

3) As far as reducing healing or dmg overall... I think considering how many possible builds we have you will never get this balanced in anyway at all... it will simply create new issues. IMO

4) The thought of increasing sci or decreasing sci resists... is interesting. However its unneeded. As much as some poeple wine there Sci is broken. Its really isn't. There is no issues with sci and sci resist IMO.... can you resist most of a shield strip YES and with reason. Prior to the new skill tree teams of Sci owned all for a reason. The way the system is now Sci is still the largest factor on the field, No matter what anyone says. The system works have some faith in your work.

5) IF you guys have this tech THIS is what I would do....

1 - Disable Low level Ship consoles in PvP... meaning the commander ship consoles like AMS and Aceton and Leach provide Zero Effect in PvP. The end game ship consoles can remain. Make them PvE toys.

2 - Disable the Doff System in PvP maps. As well as the Rep system.

Now I know what you are going to say about both those suggestions... or your boss will say. You don't want people to have a different build experience. Bla bla bla.

If that argument comes up if you should suggest testing something like that Bort... use your competition as a template for your argument. Use Anets game in your argument. A game where you can use your PVE gear all you want in Open PvP areas... but in Arena Style maps NONE of your PvE earned gear works.... its a template that in fact has a TON of customer support... its loved by both PvE and PvP crowds...
Do the same here in STO... leave Kerrat and I hope future Opvp zones as a wild west... but in arena and Cap and Slaps... and the new game types your working... restrict most of the Pve gear.
When the messenger comes to appropriate your profits ... kill the messenger.

Last edited by antoniosalieri; 02-25-2013 at 09:59 AM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,400
# 7
02-25-2013, 09:52 AM
Hi Bort,

This is great news, really great.

You're going to get deluged with ideas and criticisms, so I just want to say that seeing there is this much consideration alone is a step in the right direction.


Quote:
Originally Posted by borticuscryptic View Post
1) Max Hitpoints/Shields Increases


The recent thread titled "Spike vs. Pressure" paints a picture that seems to indicate that this would end up being a bad thing for Space PvP, resulting in the very real possibility of matches where ships never died. However, we've yet to see any evidence that this would be anything other than a good thing for Ground PvP.
I agree with the first assertion, that there would literally be situations where killing someone might likely be impossible.

Ground PvP I am very very new to. I'll leave this primarily to real ground pvpers but as a pvp ground bootcamp I'll put a few ideas forward that may or may not be totally accurate:

1) As a tac this would be good, because I would no longer get instant-popped as easily as I can instant-pop others.

2) As a tac I have "super buff" available to instant pop someone, but I don't think I have a consistent offense - I think it would need testing to see if there is still enough DPS there to wear down another tankier player. But really, my experience here is completely limited.




Quote:
Originally Posted by borticuscryptic View Post
2) Healing -OR- Damage Output Decreases

Applying Healing effectiveness reduction to PvP maps would lead to extremely volatile matches unless it came hand-in-hand with limitations to Spike Damage potential. While limiting overall damage output would likely be a bad idea because it impacts "Pressure" DPS more profoundly than "Spike" -- not a great idea to exacerbate this issue. This probably means that this option is even less likely to be a good idea, than the previous notion. At least for Space PvP.

I think the biggest culprit at the moment is passive healing and passive resistances that come from gear, DOFFs, rep powers, etc.

It's hard to keep track of, it's harder to overcome, it doesn't require any effort to activate and maintain in combat and it marginalizes actual healers/buffers.

So rather than directly tone down specific BOFF powers, I think you might want to limit stacking of passives in someway - with the caveat that you make this kind of build limitation clearly visible in the UI for players to properly understand what they have and do not have.

There are also some overperformers, such as the 10s tactical debuff cleanse that TT provides. This alone would open up options for better use of APB & APD (FOMM still gets cleansed instantly unfortunately, as it cannot be reapplied again, the same goes for Sensor Scan).



Quote:
Originally Posted by borticuscryptic View Post
3) Reduction in Status Ability Effectiveness -OR- the Resistance Thereof

Presume that the term "Status" refers to just about anything that is not Damage. Buffs, Debuffs, Repel, Disable, Confuse, etc.


In PvP however, the combination of extreme skill stacking and high resistance factors, cause us difficulty when attempting to find the correct balance point of an ability's effectiveness. We have therefore theorized that allowing us to limit one side of the equation or the other, ONLY in PvP, might allow us to tune these abilities in a more focused, controlled manner.

I think that's a good idea, but it needs to be surgical in application vs. any one specific status effect as some of them are in decent place, some are overperforming and others are underperforming.



Thanks for starting this conversation, my one real request is that when some of these ideas eventually go to tribble - that they do in fact actually go to tribble, and the PvP community has a chance to test it and give feedback.

This really needs to be a slow, patient process.


One of the biggest sources of complaints are changes that suddenly get pushed to live and we have to deal with until we are lucky enough to have the items on the table again.


Last edited by ussultimatum; 02-25-2013 at 09:54 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 508
# 8
02-25-2013, 09:52 AM
Interesting.

Imo tho all id like to see which would make me maybe play pvp would be the host to pick options like any other mp centred gameplay i.e what map, how many players i.e 2v2 4v4 8v8 etc. Lock to type of ship i.e all or just cruisers or just escorts, ability to select no powers so it removes captain and boff powers and you duke it out just based on ur equipment only (really like the idea of that personally).

Turn nebula on or off or other kind of map hazzards which would effect gameplay i.e hide in asteroid belts or knock shields off or binds sensors etc with nebula. Gravity i.e fight around a planet might be interesting too.

But about the changes borts saying. Maybe they could work.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 265
# 9
02-25-2013, 09:56 AM
Of the three options the third one seems most promising, seeing as we have matches where ships never die already.

Yet the three options don't address the issue of pressure v spike. Or over heal.

I always thought that all Shield and hull heals should have diminishing returns (so heals can't be stacked) preventing the yo-yo effect of 10% hull/shields to 100% in a second.

I also propose that DPS should scale inversely with hull. Ships at 10% are just as combat effective as at 100%.

While the the proposed options don't address my ideas, getting abilities tuned up in a predictable manner is a good step. Balancing PvE vs PvP is probably maddening.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,228
# 10
02-25-2013, 10:00 AM
Thanks for bringing this to the forum Bort.

This is such a radical suggestion that I am not sure what effects this may have. Though I look forward to it possibly being on Tribble for a lengthy duration, with significant testing to determine the viability.

Is there a checkpoint you could reach, in which you would know if this was tenable or not without implementing a system that might not work?
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