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Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,192
# 31
02-25-2013, 01:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by beefsupreme79 View Post
1. Yes, but only for klingons, i mean really how else do we counter the fed only ships you keep building far superior to our bops. luckily overall klinks are more skilled atm. if you boost everyone 2 to 3 times, how does that change anything? a bop is still paper compared to a fedscort who just got buffed along with u...lulz

2.No, just no. currently the only viable way to counter fed bias is massive spike before they start theyre "human regen experience" have you pvped lately?

3. im not a sci, but if u did this everyone and theyre mother would stack resists to sci abilities rendering them useless. now you have only one career viable for pvp tac and tac

if you didnt want extreme skill stacking, why did you allow it? 5 human doffs giving nearly 300% hull regen fedside only? cmon now how did you "miss" that?
A full human crew is 150% regen bonus outside combat btw. Not 300% incombat like you would like to present it. If you want play smart, at least accuse with right numbers. And beside, there seem to be diminished returns on high values, because on 350% its 3% per second, same as it os on 500%. if anything, the subsystem repair part is somewhat OP, because it makes VM last 1-2s.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,202
# 32
02-25-2013, 01:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by borticuscryptic View Post
1) Max Hitpoints/Shields Increases
This is absolutely required on ground. Tacs can deal an incredible amount of damage (I have one) while heals need some time to be applied. It's an idea i've suggested before so i can't disagree. Getting rid of one shots on can only make ground pvp more interesting. 300% seems ok to me without any testing.

This may work only if the 3rd idea is applied too, because I know i can stack impressive resistance values with my sci heals too. And scis playing in god mode isn't what ground pvp needs either.

For space... Um, why not, as long as it's different modifiers for different ship classes. We don't need more tanky tac ships TBH.

Quote:
2) Healing -OR- Damage Output Decreases
Why not using the 3rd idea and limiting dps boosts to let's say 200% of the original DPS at most? I think it makes more sense than a blind and class-wide debuff.
Quote:
3) Reduction in Status Ability Effectiveness -OR- the Resistance Thereof
Very interesting idea. Decreasing the max resistance values, along with the max dps boosts will make pressure damage more important, while spike damage can keep some meaning. We'll also get rid off zombie cruisers, which is good, healers will be required, and tacs won't rule matches.

It would only make sense if there is a hard DPS cap] so that any new ship you release can't break everything. I'm sure it might be extremely hard to implement but this could be really useful.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 114
# 33
02-25-2013, 01:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by borticuscryptic View Post
For some time now, we have been kicking around the idea of instituting map-wide variables on all PvP maps we currently have in the game, in order to apply global changes to the way that certain powers operate. While this wouldn't be considered a true "fix" for PvP overall, we feel that, if we got the numbers right, it could go a long way towards addressing some points of primary concern among both players that are both Casual and Hardcore PvP enthusiasts.

Before I go into the details of what's so far been considered, I want to make it absolutely clear that these are only IDEAS, and stating them here for feedback is absolutely NOT a guarantee that they will be implemented. And even if they are, there's a good chance they will not see the light of day, even on Tribble, until after our May Update.

With that in mind, here are a couple of the map-wide modifications we've been considering:

1) Max Hitpoints/Shields Increases

This was originally considered for Ground PvP specifically, but we later began to wonder if it might be appropriate for Space as well. For now, we're considering very large increases - as much as 200%-300% of your base hitpoint and shield amounts.

We fully realize that changing this one factor, without modifying powers, would fundamentally alter the flow of battle. It would completely change the intrinsic values and opportunity costs associated with many powers, as well as changing the perceived value of cooldowns and escape tactics.

The recent thread titled "Spike vs. Pressure" paints a picture that seems to indicate that this would end up being a bad thing for Space PvP, resulting in the very real possibility of matches where ships never died. However, we've yet to see any evidence that this would be anything other than a good thing for Ground PvP.
I like the hitpoints idea from a starting point the best. As drunk said you would need to lower resistances and adjust healing with it. When people talk about healers in this game for me a lot of the "healing" is reducing damage instead and it creates an environment where an unbuffed ship is toast and a fully buffed ship is invincible for a time.

I guess I would that a system with higher hitpoints and lower a resistances would be a game style that may be more attritional in play in both healing and damage. However as a tac/escort flyer primarily I would also hope burst wasnt lost in the change.

You'd have to restructure damage buffs and how powerful weapons are also at any rate, But I like the basic idea.

Quote:
2) Healing -OR- Damage Output Decreases
I think this would further harm pvp for the more casual player honestly.

Quote:
3) Reduction in Status Ability Effectiveness -OR- the Resistance Thereof
Personally I like status where it is, but if it were fiddled with and rather start from the idea that counters clear an ability, rather than keep clearing it. At least reducing clearing effects length of time and then reducing certain debuffs effectiveness would allow for more windows of opportunity in play. I think this would work well with the higher hit point idea as well.

note: with the hitpoints increase I wouldn't be after longer match time but where intial ship hull and shield point play more of a role in gameplay.

(edit: Im sure some players might prefer different options but I think it's a pretty universal good feeling that pvp is getting some focus at last, ty for communication bort and cryptic!)

Your Ramming Speed III deals 52098 (99235) Kinetic Damage(Critical) to Remus.

Last edited by captkirrahe; 02-25-2013 at 02:00 PM.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,495
# 34
02-25-2013, 01:58 PM
Regarding option #2

I'd be interested in siginificantly increasing Hull resistances and their caps while reducing greatly Hull repair amounts. It makes more sense to me to have Shields yo-yo than Hull/Armor. If the desire is to reduce near instant kills, this would do that while still rewarding hit and run tactics that significantly damage hulls. W/o reducing the hull repair rate potential you'd basically remove hit and run tactics from PvP if you were to do option #1 or decrease damage significantly.

Regarding option #3

Imo, there are lackluster Sci abilities for both, in particular shield drain powers. I'd recommend increasing Boff Debuff effectiveness significantly. Than tweek the player resistances to a managable level where they mitigate, but don't counter a debuff while making sure counters do exist.

Also, player NPC pets have too many debuffs that aren't weak enough relative to player Boff abilities. I'd also increase native player resistances to NPCs pets, to me the pet debuffs should be a boost to a build, not the keystone it's built around. This would allow the pets to be powerful in PvE, so's not to hear nerf cries from that crowd.

Edit: Adding the injury issue to #2 option of greatly reducing hull repairs/greatly increasing resistance cap of hull resists. Have injuries occur at various hull damage levels and disable the repair function on PvP maps. You could pontentionally add pseudo injuries to TSSx 3 tactical abilities which are timed based debuffs that havea chance to cause minor injuries to a target in or out of PvP. Though this last bit is probably too specific for what you're asking for at this point.

Last edited by p2wsucks; 02-25-2013 at 02:10 PM.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 959
# 35
02-25-2013, 01:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by borticuscryptic View Post
In PvP however, the combination of extreme skill stacking and high resistance factors, cause us difficulty when attempting to find the correct balance point of an ability's effectiveness. We have therefore theorized that allowing us to limit one side of the equation or the other, ONLY in PvP, might allow us to tune these abilities in a more focused, controlled manner.
I've asked repeatedly for some hard caps on various buffs/de-buffs, and possibly damage, so I'm all for it.

I saw a Wells tank 7 KDF in Kerrat last night. The buff icons and adaptive shielding markers stretched across half my screen. That is a bad thing.
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Super Moderator
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 4,626
# 36
02-25-2013, 02:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by borticuscryptic View Post
For some time now, we have been kicking around the idea of instituting map-wide variables on all PvP maps we currently have in the game, in order to apply global changes to the way that certain powers operate. While this wouldn't be considered a true "fix" for PvP overall, we feel that, if we got the numbers right, it could go a long way towards addressing some points of primary concern among both players that are both Casual and Hardcore PvP enthusiasts.

Before I go into the details of what's so far been considered, I want to make it absolutely clear that these are only IDEAS, and stating them here for feedback is absolutely NOT a guarantee that they will be implemented. And even if they are, there's a good chance they will not see the light of day, even on Tribble, until after our May Update.

With that in mind, here are a couple of the map-wide modifications we've been considering:

1) Max Hitpoints/Shields Increases

This was originally considered for Ground PvP specifically, but we later began to wonder if it might be appropriate for Space as well. For now, we're considering very large increases - as much as 200%-300% of your base hitpoint and shield amounts.

We fully realize that changing this one factor, without modifying powers, would fundamentally alter the flow of battle. It would completely change the intrinsic values and opportunity costs associated with many powers, as well as changing the perceived value of cooldowns and escape tactics.

The recent thread titled "Spike vs. Pressure" paints a picture that seems to indicate that this would end up being a bad thing for Space PvP, resulting in the very real possibility of matches where ships never died. However, we've yet to see any evidence that this would be anything other than a good thing for Ground PvP.


2) Healing -OR- Damage Output Decreases

Unlike the previous option, which would have a fairly equal impact on both Damage and Healing effectiveness, these ideas are more surgical, affecting either one or the other, at disparate levels.

Applying Healing effectiveness reduction to PvP maps would lead to extremely volatile matches unless it came hand-in-hand with limitations to Spike Damage potential. While limiting overall damage output would likely be a bad idea because it impacts "Pressure" DPS more profoundly than "Spike" -- not a great idea to exacerbate this issue. This probably means that this option is even less likely to be a good idea, than the previous notion. At least for Space PvP.


3) Reduction in Status Ability Effectiveness -OR- the Resistance Thereof

Presume that the term "Status" refers to just about anything that is not Damage. Buffs, Debuffs, Repel, Disable, Confuse, etc.

To be frank, we're fairly well satisfied with how effective most powers are in PvE in terms of their ability to inflict Status effects, and manipulate the flow of an encounter. As well as players' options to resist the effects of these abilities when they are used by NPCs. That's not to say that they are perfect, or that there isn't room for improvement, but we're OK with them as they are. Generally speaking.

In PvP however, the combination of extreme skill stacking and high resistance factors, cause us difficulty when attempting to find the correct balance point of an ability's effectiveness. We have therefore theorized that allowing us to limit one side of the equation or the other, ONLY in PvP, might allow us to tune these abilities in a more focused, controlled manner.


------

So, those are the main ideas we've had so far. We'd like to hear some open-minded feedback on what consequences any of the above could potentially have on the viability and flow of PvP combat, and its popularity among Veterans and non-Veterans alike. Keep in mind that we recognize the potential risk involved with making global changes of this nature, so you can bet your self-sealing stem bolts that we'd be testing any map-wide alterations extensively on Tribble before sending them into a Live environment (we've already investigated how to control this).

If you could allow players to start queues and set some of these variables "on" or "off" before the match starts, this could be incredi-good. And possibly even lead to other PvP map enhancements.

If these variables will be unchanging and not optional, I'd say there's a strong potential for incredi-bad. Without the ability to turn them off, you could make PvP intolerable while you're tuning the numbers.
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Ensign
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 9
# 37
02-25-2013, 02:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by borticuscryptic View Post
Possibly, but likely not. We'd probably get to a point where we're ready to put it to testing on Tribble, but it's entirely plausible that the results we see in Testing mean it never goes live.

To respond to a couple points of feedback that have already been given:

- This is not the thread to discuss new game modes (4v4, locked ship types, etc). Yes, we've been contemplating and brainstorming some new pvp content concepts, but that's all stuff for another day.

- These ideas are specifically non-surgical in nature. They're heavy-handed, far-reaching and potentially volatile changes. This is why we're floating the ideas to the community before even prototyping it internally. And we know they're likely to be seen by players as nothing more than a band-aid on the current state of PvP. And honestly, that's kinda what they are. We're not trying to solve individual mechanical issues with this type of change, we're just trying to make the game's PvP more enjoyable, and approachable.
i just want to say thank you. you have done so much to support pvp. you truly do care about this game. thank you for the post and i look foward to testing any ideas that come along.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,400
# 38
02-25-2013, 02:36 PM
To people suggesting complete disables of passives and doffs, rep powers, and other gear in PvP.

I understand the reason you would say such a thing, but realistically speaking do you honestly think a suggestion like that has any chance of surviving to see the light of day?


We can either be a part of some kind of a solution as a community, or we can make unrealistic suggestions and demands that the devs are unlikely to be able to follow through on.



I'm not trying to referee or be a party pooper or any such thing, I work with marketing teams and we have 1 hour brain storming sessions where they might as well be asking my team to create real live flying unicorns that shoot musical rainbows from their nostrils.

Unrealistic suggestions like that mean the entire 1 hour meeting is wasted, instead of being productive and focusing on things that are actually doable.



I think a better approach would be some kind of dimishing returns or stacking limit on things like passive healing and resists, you don't want to limit boff and captain active use powers here, just the stuff that is basically effortless mitigation improvements.


The hard part of the balancing act here is that STO has a typical MMO gear/power progression model, so they have to add new things for people to want to acquire - that's the game it is and has been.


How do we work within that framework?


Last edited by ussultimatum; 02-25-2013 at 02:38 PM.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 249
# 39
02-25-2013, 02:58 PM
I don't mean to undermine this at all I honestly a big part of the sustained damage thread is due to the reputation/elite fleet shields is apart of the problem that it seems that sustained damage is worthless it even started before that with the shield distro officers.

Escorts are the only ones that can do any decent damage apart from bleedthew transphasics/Plasma torpedoes that have the hull burn.
Noone.
Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 461
# 40
02-25-2013, 02:59 PM
The following post concerns Ground PVP.

Increasing shields/hp will change very little with regards to class vs class balance in team play. It will not solve any problems in team play, but it will not cause any either.

Increasing shields/hp will make most 1v1s tend towards stalemates, rather than clear resolutions. Tac will still remain the most powerful in 1v1, although less so than before. Physicist will be rendered obsolete in 1v1. I would consider this a negative change overall for 1v1s.

---

Healing decreases will kill any hope there is left for ground pvp. Tactical officers, with the best damage output and best damage mitigation (suppressing fire) in the game, are already supreme; significantly reducing healing will make the only viable premade 4 tacs and 1 sci, with the sci's sole role being to provide debuffs to make the tacs kill each other faster.

---

Slashing damage output will have a similar outcome to increasing health and shields, but favor tacs less. It is the best option of the options listed.

---

Reduction in status ability effectiveness or reduction in resistance to status ability effectiveness is too much of a wild card to predict without further information, because different kinds of status abilities are resisted differently and have different impacts, both good and bad, on the game.

---

Suggestion for a sweeping change that would solve more problems than any of the above:

Level lock all gear at mk10 for pvp, and auto-scale any higher mk gear to its mk10 equivalent during pvp.
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