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Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 9,186
# 101
02-26-2013, 10:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by darramouss1 View Post
These fly in the face of reason and fly in the face of Trek. Call me old fashioned, but I like my Trek games to be a little more Trek. Science should be more than an annoyance. You should see science and be wary. Cruisers should be harder to kill. Escorts should NOT be able to tank.
I guess I missed this earlier. I highlighted an aspect that does not make sense with what you said. There's nothing about Star Trek Science that should make you wary. The Sciences Division of Starfleet...well...yeah, other folks in Starfleet, the Federation, and general denizens of the Universe might be concerned with lab experiments gone awry and thus be wary... but Sci as it exists in the game is nothing like Science in Star Trek. Science in STO is a mix of Tactical/Engineering...it's Operations Division. It's one of the least Trek things about the game...and suggesting that one be wary of Science in a more Trek way - well, that's those pesky guys with pocket protectors not considering the consequences of their experiments...but that's about it.
Willard the Rat, Reman, F.T'varo - Rave, J.Trill, Kar'Fi - Mysk, Gorn, Varanus
Maal, Klingon, Mogh - Vegar, Orion, Marauder
Nivuh, Ferasan, B'rel - Venit, Lethaen, M.Qin - Kopor, Nausicaan, Guramba
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 189
# 102
02-26-2013, 10:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by darramouss1 View Post
Hello all.

I'm a big fan of the game, and whilst some decisions I've not agreed with (tricobalt nerf springs to mind), I generally like the direction that the game is travelling in. One aspect that I've grown to appreciate is the reputation system. I like that it gives you something to work to and that it's a system that can be built upon. (Long have I advocated systems like fleets, bases, embassies and reputations as systems can be built upon.)

I have to admit that I'm NOT looking forward to the possibility of a PvP reputation system. PvP is an OPTIONAL aspect of the game. A lot of people, like myself, don't want to have to PvP in order to get stuff.

Playing PvE is pretty much a required part of the game. I defy anyone to tell me that they have a toon that has not done any PvE. You don't take a level 1 toon in to PvP. You level the toon up and then take it to PvP if you choose to.

I believe that PvP is broken. I know I'm not alone as I read threads stating that PvP is broken. Also, if it wasn't broken why would there be talk on Cryptic's part about fixing it?

Just to make sure I wasn't being completely one sided in my opinion I went in to PvP with various ships of mine. One ship of each type, to be specific. They were chosen as per the following criteria.

Escort - Best DPS. Something that pumps out death. It's rare that it's not the highest damage dealer in an eSTF. VERY rare.
Science - Something that mixes shield survivability with high end sci damage abilities. It has a very respectable DPS. It's rare that it's not either the 1st or second highest DPS in an eSTF.
Cruiser - An equal mix of DPS and tanking. This ship quite happily sits under a cube in elite Cure and takes out the probes without worrying about dying.

I played two games with each ship. For the sci and cruiser I died at LEAST 4 times per kill. In almost every game I was the very first target of the match; the first on my team fired upon. Makes you think that the enemy thought I would be the easiest target.

The escort? I got a 7 and 0 and a 9 and 0. I also found myself targeting the cruisers and science ships as they were the easiest to kill.

I'm sorry, but to me this seems broken. For players to target non-escorts right from the start shows that it's recognised that they're weak. For me to gravitate to killing non-escorts in the span of a few kills means that I recognised that they were weak.

From my limited experience, combined with the vast number of threads I've read about PvP being (primarily) the domain of the escort shows that it's broken.

If you make a PvP reputation players with escorts will max it out very speedily whereas people who don't fly escorts will take forever. This is unfair and should not eventuate.
Tonight I was in a match vs Minimax, and this guy has one of the most awe inspiring alpha strikes I've ever had the pleasure to see. If players like that make the pvp game no fun for you, I suggest organizing in-fleet only matches where 'rules' can be set control the tempo. My fleet dose this once a week. People who hate PvP have become regulars for fleet pvp night.

PvP deserves a reputation system. For those who don't mind taking on the best, the most heinous, most nerve racking opponenets, there is public queues. For casuals there is private matches. Win/Win.

Brody, TosVets
Rihannsu
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,400
# 103
02-26-2013, 10:24 PM
Once I saw the opening of the thread starting to be more of a:

"BUUUT DADDY! I DUNN WAANNA PEEVEEPPEE FOR GEARZ!"

I had to roll my eyes and even skip past probably a lot of good responses and content because frankly, that's about all I'm picturing..

Heck, do you think those of us that do like to PVP want to have to Grind out 50 levels of Content even with PVE let alone have to get the best gear by doing that very same thing? Heck no!

But we do it because we want to be the best. Lately I've been looking more and more at PVP as the PVE destroyer play ground. What that means is, the build is so optimal, that same team that just went 15-0 in an Arena could probably walk into any STF And probably fly through it with out breaking a sweat.

And that's the thing.. PVE is so important to the game that PVP got left to the way side so badly it has become what it is today. The Development staff acknowledges this. Even DStahl acknowledges this. And they are working right now to try and come up with ways to either Fix PVP, or give us enough Bandages that we can Mummy our way to greatness.

So instead of looking down on a PVP Reputation just because you'd have to grind out apart of the game you don't enjoy for the coolest new gear, think about the other side of the foot. The side that has been on near amputation status for the last 3 years to only now get attention. We didn't want PVE to be so important with PVP, yet it is. We've accepted it. And we've thrived because of it.

A PVP Reputation system will bring.. unique things I'm sure. Probably both good and bad. And anything that PVP can get, you should be happy about. Because just imagine if the shoe had been on the other foot.. and PVE had been ignored, while new maps, modes, rules, and other cool things were given to PVP.. You'd be happy to get anything for PVE..provided it didn't break the system. So be happy for PVP. Be willing to give it a try.. And if worse comes to worse, just join your friends in Private to get your Daily Rep grind done.

Because let's face it, PVP and PVE aren't where it's so bad for a Rep system. It's the Grind it's self. We all hate it, PVPers or PVEers alike. But we can all agree new content is appricated.. Even if us "red-headed Step-children" may infact get some new shines.

PS: I'm tired.. if that was more rant then response.. Whoops.
You think that your beta test was bad?
Think about this:
American Football has been in open beta for 144 years. ~Kotaku
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 361
# 104
02-26-2013, 10:53 PM
my only concern is that pvp rep will probably be toon bound, and not account wide. Happy me with my 7 toons
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 9,186
# 105
02-26-2013, 10:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by rudiefix1 View Post
my only concern is that pvp rep will probably be toon bound, and not account wide. Happy me with my 7 toons
Stahl's already said all the Rep will be toon bound - though on their whiteboard they've discussed adding things at T5 that would be available at the account level. Wouldn't expect much there...

...also, he's said that they're looking at perhaps making the Rep "grind" less of a grind.

They don't want it to be account wide...
Willard the Rat, Reman, F.T'varo - Rave, J.Trill, Kar'Fi - Mysk, Gorn, Varanus
Maal, Klingon, Mogh - Vegar, Orion, Marauder
Nivuh, Ferasan, B'rel - Venit, Lethaen, M.Qin - Kopor, Nausicaan, Guramba
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 336
# 106
02-26-2013, 11:02 PM
I remember when PvP was more about skill than whatever gear you were running. Then the Omega System rolled around and everyone was farming STF's for the best gear.

This just had me shaking my head and facepalming. It's only gotten worse since.

There use to be a PvP system in place where you earned Honor Marks to purchase exclusive gear but that got scrapped in favor of the Omega System.

I'd love a PvP Rep system and it's long overdue. If Cryptic isn't going to bother giving us any new PvP content, i.e. Maps, then at least impliment a system that rewards PvP'rs for sitting in queues for hours on end and having to trudge through the same 3 Maps over and over again.

I don't even understand why anyone in PvE would complain about PvP exclusive gear. I could pilot any ship with the common default gear it came with and roll over PvE content.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 4,751
# 107
02-27-2013, 12:05 AM
I'm gonna just pass on replying to anything on this thread so far, and just put this:

I wouldn't mind a PvP rep, as long as most of the gear unlocks were for general equipment, like we used to have it long long ago.

Heck, even the old Omega store had all that good, basic purple gear allowing you to easily gear a ship or toon up for free basically.

So if a PvP rep included things that would let you somewhat easily gear up a ship or toon like it used to be for a decent cost, even if that cost was dil, that'd be better.

I'd also love to have a store unlock of basic consumables, so you can always have access to batteries and hypos (which would also be really nice for doing rep missions for the other ones).



To me though, the biggest worry I have at all really lies with the very real fear of seeing PvP dailies nerfed. No more dil or FMs, or much reduced amounts. Or stuff on the KDF side of having to kill 10 turrets, or die 25 times, etc just giving 'PvP marks', which wouldn't be bad, I just wouldn't ONLY want those either.

As for the passives, one way they can avoid the issue is just by making non-combat passives that would just be useful in general.

Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,186
# 108
02-27-2013, 07:56 AM
The biggest problem I have with a PvP rep system is that those who aren't very good @PvP will complain that it favors better players, as it should but the majority of players who mainly do PvE pay the bills. When money talks cryptic will listen, and if there's exclusive shineys in a PvP system the money will demand that those unwilling to do PvP will also get access to those shineys.

I just don't see and PvP rep system working if it rewards only PvP participants. So whats left to include in a PvP rep system, titles and trophies ?
KBF Lord MalaK
Awoken Dead

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Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 258
# 109
02-27-2013, 09:31 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by crusader2007 View Post
Just in case if you did not know ALL rep systems are OPTIONAL....nobody is putting a gun on anyone to do them. Same goes with Omega and Romulan...
^^^
I was gonna say this but it looks like crusader is on top of it.

Oh and for the record many of us PvPers like PvE in other games, but STO PvE is so boring and repetitive that we're not left with much choice as far as challenge, variety, and meta-game dynamics.
K'eg/T'lol/Dude/Yak

Last edited by bobtheyak; 02-27-2013 at 09:33 AM.
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,323
# 110
02-27-2013, 10:40 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by lordmalak1 View Post
The biggest problem I have with a PvP rep system is that those who aren't very good @PvP will complain that it favors better players, as it should but the majority of players who mainly do PvE pay the bills. When money talks cryptic will listen, and if there's exclusive shineys in a PvP system the money will demand that those unwilling to do PvP will also get access to those shineys.

I just don't see and PvP rep system working if it rewards only PvP participants. So whats left to include in a PvP rep system, titles and trophies ?
(All of this is spoken with 2 days of PvP experience. I'm not professing to know everything. I've also spoken to a few friends and asked their opinions. They're not crazy enough like me to post on forums, though. I'm a glutton for punishment.)

My biggest issue with PvP is the fact that it's escort-centric. In my short time I have seen well over 50% of the ships being escorts when escorts only make up roughly 30% of ships in the game. The game mechanics support this prevalence for escorts, hence you see posts that talk about this game being Escorts Online. I feel that this discourages players like me who prefer to fly sci and cruisers. Fixing this break would make a PvP reputation more accessible.

I can understand that people who devote all their time to PvP will be better than the rest. It's common sense. I will go so far as to say that PvP is a focused art in this game. Unfortunately for PvP it's an art that the majority of the playing community will not be prepared to master. That or they don't feel that that's how they want to play the game.

Now, in regards to people saying you can have very effective science builds, I understand this but they're a lot harder to make than the escort builds. People would have to devote a lot of time and energy in to creating these builds. As per my third paragraph, people don't want to spend that sort of time honing a ship that finely so they see it as escorts only even though it's not really.

A close friend of mine tried dabbling in PvP and come across a fleet who coordinated their every move to the point where they won 15-0 and not one of them even lost a shield facing. Good for them that they have achieved such a high level of skill. Bad for PvP as my friend is a player who was demoralised to the point where he'll never set course for PvP again and has shared his negative experience with his friends. I'm sure he's not alone in that.

Good on Cryptic for starting PvP boot camp. They're making an effort and you have to give them credit for that regardless of what you think of them. Not everybody has the time to go in boot camp, however. I'm lucky enough that I can play for a few hours per day. There are people out there who have families who my only have a few hours per week. They're never going to be able to get good enough to become masters unless they're naturally gifted prodigies. How can a person with a few hours per week compare with people who live and breathe it? They can't so there's a player who feels segregated from getting some nice gear.

There's been the argument that why should you need to have everything. Me, I'm a ship collector. I like having at least one of every ship. I know that other people might not feel the same way, but that's one way that I derive enjoyment from the game. I'm sure that there are equipment collectors out there who collect stuff just for collecting's sake. Why should they be deprived of one of the things that gives them joy in the game if PvP reputation makes new stuff inaccessible to them?

Looking at it objectively you have a system that favours one sort of ship (which discourages some players who prefer other ship classes), a system that throws less skilled players to the wolves, a system that requires a large amount of time and a system that currently attracts a minority of the players.

I forget who, but a PvPer in this thread stated that they didn't like having to grind to get gear that they wanted to use in PvP. I'm genuinely sorry you feel that way. The hard thing is that most of this game is PvE, and like Lord Malak stated above its the majority of players, PvE players, that pay the bills. (I did quote you for a reason, Malak!)

I don't have a blanket objection to PvP reputation. If things were fixed and made accessable to the bulk of the community in a meaningful way then I would support it. As it is in its current state I just feel that a PvP reputation could be harmful to the game.

If Cryptic wanted to make PvP a more prominent feature of the game I feel that they should consider one or more options such as:

a) Fix the game so that escorts are not the favoured children. Balance!!

b) Make PvP reputation only give PvP gear.

c) For the people who hate PvE, mirror the gear found in other reputations in PvP reputation. In other words, give players the ability to pick up the MACO, Omega, Romulan, etc gear via a PvP reputation so that PvE becomes an option, not a necessity.

d) Create a Fleet queue and a PUG queue or create a ranking statem that matches players so that new players can ease themselves in without coming across one of the super fleets. This would also give the super fleets more chance of coming across harder fights.

All of this I have not said to incite or troll. These are my thought out ideas and feelings about a PvP reputation. Even though I'm not trolling I can see that I'm going to get flamed in response. Ah well. Such is life.
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