Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 152
# 101
02-26-2013, 01:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by psycoticvulcan View Post
If they have jobs they like, they will.
A lot of people like to sit around and watch TV and/or get drunk while doing it. They probably like that more than anything useful to society. A lot of people just plain hate their jobs even when its something they like doing. As I said before I like(d) being in the Army. (retiring....as a matter of fact my final pre-clear to retirement is this week)...but I would never do it for free....and guess what...I'm not a jump out of planes and shoot everything soldier, I'm a military graphic designer. I won't do it for free, especially with 23 years of active service experience.

Quote:
Name something you enjoy doing. Chances are there's a workplace equivalent (or close) somewhere. So you can enjoy your job, not have to worry about supporting yourself, and be satisfied that you're doing your part in keeping humanity alive and peaceful.
I like to draw. Thats fine. But the art supplies don't come from nowhere. Someone has to gather the resources, manufacture and distribute the goods. They ain't gonna do it for free. Especially if they can get what they need for free to live and be happy. Even if you say "they can replicate art supplies" someone has to design,build and distribute the replicators. Someone has to maintain them. ...and thats without going into the entire where does the energy and matter come from. No one is going to do all that for free and frankly I'd be horiffied to see a planet full of replicators and holodecks. Human nature isn't going to change because of Gene Roddenberry's imagination or the hopes of fans of the show. If it were that simple we'd have world peace right now. We'd still have money though because of human nature.

There is nothing wrong about wanting to be paid for your work. No one wrote, directed or starred in Star Trek for no pay either.


Quote:
And "everything they want for free" isn't at all what I said. Resources should be distributed as needed. This would teach people to be grateful for what they have, and to understand why they shouldn't be greedy.
You may not have said it, but the premise that no one needs money is ridiculous. Its one of my biggest pet peeves personally with Trek. Because if no one needs money who the heck is going to work? The guy who has to fix those waste extraction systems must be a saint if he's doing it for no pay. It'd be more like "Why should I do this dumb job when I get a decent place to live, free food and drink and I can can have my fantasies made real in a holodeck?". My mother and my older sister and my cousin were teachers. They love children. But I know for a fact they wouldn't do it for nothing. Especially if mom could just get food from a replicator and take vacations in the holodeck.

Human society would grind to a halt.

And who gets to choose how the resources are allocated? You don't get something for nothing, especially when most of the population would rather do nothing useful....and they won't. Why should they unless they're getting paid somehow to do it? The miners in the TOS episode "Mudd's Women" weren't living in a craphole mining dilithium because they loved living in a craphole and digging dilithium. Did the waiters at Sisko's like waiting tables so much they decided to do it for free? Do the poor shmucks who make a living doing yardwork do it because they love working in the dirt everyday, etc?

People shouldn't be greedy, you're right. But they are....and realistically thats not going to change just because "Gene said so" and everyone wants to live in paradise. In reality the "no money, we can replicate stuff from magic and we have holodecks" society would be worse than what we have now.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,678
# 102
02-26-2013, 07:24 PM
The primary tenet of a moneyless economy will be no more hording, no more 1000 acre estates with a mansion with 500 hundred rooms and a hundred servants for a family of 3, if you have a large family then you get a large house, if you're single you get a nice apartment. There would be no stock market, no more manipulating the value of resources to artificially inflate their value. You get what you need but you're expected to use what you take, if you are researching something you get all of the resources you require so long as you can prove the need for them, if you want to be an artist all of the supplies are made available to you, a writer, a philosopher, a chef, a vintner, a fashion designer all the same, all constantly pier reviewed so that resources or talents aren't being wasted. All of the loathsome tasks and accumulation of resources will be handled using automation, nanotechnology or replication and a massive amount of recycling so waste is kept to a minimum.
One big part of the system is that you barter the products of your efforts in exchange for things you desire, everyone will want to do something if they want a bit of extra luxury but their basic needs will always be taken care of, there will be no more poor, no more starving, no more uneducated, no more homeless but there also will be no more disgustingly rich. It will be a world where everyone can indulge their hobbies or expand their knowledge and experience. There will always be people who like to cook, like to bake, like to tinker, like to fix things, like to build things, like to grow things, but they will be able to do they want without having to worry about basic survival needs.
Everyone has something that they want to do, but they will no longer have to do things just to survive.
But if all you want to do a sit around and get drunk then there is something wrong with you and you will be directed to appropriate help.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,076
# 103
02-26-2013, 07:46 PM
I think what you're failing to grasp is that Star Trek is a post-scarcity economy. Replicators, fusion power, and solar power mean that resources are never going to be an issue again - you can replicate anything you might want. A collector might find value in having the original from which the pattern was made (cf TNG episode "The Most Toys"), but that value would no longer be intrinsic. Cheap, easy space and star travel mean that population pressure is no longer an issue - Earth too crowded? Move to Deneva! You want to live in a mansion on a thousand-acre estate? Well, if you like deserts, Mars is being terraformed; if you prefer forests, there's bound to be someplace you can build the spread you want.

Now, once you get out toward the frontier, the power to run the replicators might not be quite so limitless - you might even get an economy going in the trade of replicator usage units, similar to what happened on Voyager. There was mention of sales of items for credits in "The Trouble With Tribbles", indicating that the Federation wasn't so strictly no-cash as Roddenberry would have wanted you to believe - those may have been "replicator credits", authorization to require the replicators at K-7 to make a given mass of whatever you might like. (Thus Cyrano Jones' hunger for them - he'd need replicator credits to get replacement parts for his trading ship's systems. To some people, trading is a game; Jones likes to up the stakes, makes him feel more alive...)

Doubtless on the worlds deep inside the Federation, there's a substantial society of "lotus eaters", people who just take their replicated goods and sit around. However, not everyone is content to do so - my father didn't work until he got too sick to continue because he had to, but because if he stopped he wouldn't have known what to do with himself. He couldn't even fill out a lazy Saturday unless he had at least three projects going on... And for those who can be that lazy, so? They're not a drag on the economy - they may in fact be doing their part to keep it going, by absorbing some of the excess being produced.
-------------------------------------------

"You're as crazy as the people on Twitter!" - Samuel L. Jackson
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 152
# 104
02-26-2013, 08:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by maxvitor View Post
The primary tenet of a moneyless economy will be no more hording, no more 1000 acre estates with a mansion with 500 hundred rooms and a hundred servants for a family of 3, if you have a large family then you get a large house, if you're single you get a nice apartment. There would be no stock market, no more manipulating the value of resources to artificially inflate their value. You get what you need but you're expected to use what you take, if you are researching something you get all of the resources you require so long as you can prove the need for them, if you want to be an artist all of the supplies are made available to you, a writer, a philosopher, a chef, a vintner, a fashion designer all the same, all constantly pier reviewed so that resources or talents aren't being wasted. All of the loathsome tasks and accumulation of resources will be handled using automation, nanotechnology or replication and a massive amount of recycling so waste is kept to a minimum.
One big part of the system is that you barter the products of your efforts in exchange for things you desire, everyone will want to do something if they want a bit of extra luxury but their basic needs will always be taken care of, there will be no more poor, no more starving, no more uneducated, no more homeless but there also will be no moredisgustingly rich. It will be a world where everyone can indulge their hobbies or expand their knowledge and experience. There will always be people who like to cook, like to bake, like to tinker, like to fix things, like to build things, like to grow things, but they will be able to do they want without having to worry about basic survival needs.
Everyone has something that they want to do, but they will no longer have to do things just to survive.
All well and good, but that doesn't make it possible, or likely. The question wasn't how do things work in Star Trek Earth, but is it possible. To do even a few of those things would require a lot of time, effort and energy. The first person to create a replicator that can make a turkey sandwich from thin air will be rich as all get out and I don't think he or she will sell them for free. There are people that work tirelessly to cure diseases because they genuinely care about making people well, but they don't do it for free and research money doesn't grow on trees.

...and who figures out how those resources are doled out? The Overlords? Because someone isn't going to like being told they can't have a mansion or a fancy this or that because not everyone can. I got a special deal to buy my car and my wife's car at the manufacturer's cost because of military service. I hate to tell you I'd be pissed if Random Guy on the street got the same deal because it would be "fair". I worked for my discount, I got shot at for my discount and honestly I don't think I get paid enough. I don't begrudge a cop a free meal at a restaurant because I had to pay. He earned his free meal due to his job.

That doesn't make me or anyone else greedy or misers or whatever. Theres nothing wrong with wanting to be paid for your work.

If Joe Blow works hard at his job as a brain surgeon (and heck, he'd better be good as a brain surgeon) he's not going to be happy seeing Slim Shadey gey get everything he has for painting pictures of ducks....that might not even be good pictures. Its a sad part of life, but not everyone can or will be a winner. No one goes through school to learn brain surgery so they can get the same things Mister Duck Painter has. Perhaps they do in Star Trek, but Trek makes people out to be completely perfect and people aren't and probably never will be, that perfect. Not to mention, the premise rquires technology that doesn't exist.

Quote:
But if all you want to do a sit around and get drunk then there is something wrong with you and you will be directed to appropriate help.
First, if thats what someone wants to do in a society where there are no homeless, no hunger and all that as you said, who makes the decision to to forcibly tell someone they need help? If Joe blow doesn't have to work and doesn't like to do any of the things that you think he or she should be doing they get sent to "Big Brother" for reeducation? Some utopia. What if someone likes to paint ducks while sitting on their behind getting drunk because it makes them happy? They have to get reeducated? Because they would have no need to NOT sit on their behind and get drunk and paint ducks. They get the same stuff that the Brain Surgeon gets.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,555
# 105
02-27-2013, 03:04 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by captnurntumber View Post
...
ever heard of PARECON?
this concept was inpired by star trek and many of the loose ends you mentioned are dealt with, but others remain.
Go pro or go home
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 152
# 106
02-27-2013, 04:02 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by baudl View Post
ever heard of PARECON?
this concept was inpired by star trek and many of the loose ends you mentioned are dealt with, but others remain.
Its a concept that I don't believe would work world wide, people being people. Again, it can work in Trek world, but thats not reality. In the real world? I don't see it happening. I don't even think the majority of people would even desire it. You would have to fundamentally change human nature to do it. If anything, humans have probably changed for the worse.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,555
# 107
02-27-2013, 04:28 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by captnurntumber View Post
Its a concept that I don't believe would work world wide, people being people. Again, it can work in Trek world, but thats not reality. In the real world? I don't see it happening. I don't even think the majority of people would even desire it. You would have to fundamentally change human nature to do it. If anything, humans have probably changed for the worse.
worldwide is questionable, i agree. as a matter of fact a similar system exists in israel and other parts of the world. they are called kibbutz
i say similar, because it has compareable idiologys and ideas, but the practical application is ofcourse not 100% like parecon or communism/socialism. Those achieve actually respectable economic value within the economy of israel.
Anyway it is a good example that illustrates that it is doable, atleast on a small scale. But as it is explained in the article, this system works and only will work on the voluntary nature of it's participants.

also the nature of man itself is not a selfish one as we see it or think it is. People lived in tribal communities for many hundred thausand years, and those tribal systems are more oriented towards the community as a whole than the individual. you could say, individualism is an idea that took shape maybe less than 7 thausand years ago...a fraction of the time man exists. The idea of property itself is even younger.

i actually doubt that our society can be called more advanced than a society that exists since the beginning of human life. Both have advantages and disadvantages, it is on us and future generations to analyse our and different societys and take the best out of all of them.
Go pro or go home

Last edited by baudl; 02-27-2013 at 04:39 AM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,741
# 108
02-27-2013, 05:00 AM
I remain pessimistic about the future depicted in Trek.

I, personally, don't think that the human race will survive to see the 24th century. Some idiot country like North Korea will have pushed the button a long time beforehand, not prevented from having done so by stupid politians.

And Alien's wouldn't change anything either - there are plenty of humans who can't live with each other (terrorist groups and idiot religous groups with their "agree with us or die" attitude", nevermind extra terrestrial life.

STAR TREK BATTLES - HIGH DPS PLAYERS NEED NOT APPY
Community Moderator
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 847
# 109
02-27-2013, 05:25 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mimey2 View Post

United Earth: This is the big point to me. Not so much the united governments, but more humanity as a species, at this point in time, I do honestly wonder if humanity could truly put aside all differences and such, and unite for all time like that.
Just addressing this one alone, it's interesting to remember that TNG always showed this utopian society, but remember that the Enterprise was often on the far reaches and away from 'real' earth. They perhaps idealised Earth a bit. I always felt DS9 did a better job of portraying Earth.
Volunteer Community Moderator for the Star Trek Online Forums. My views may not represent those of Cryptic Studios or Perfect World Entertainment.
If you wish to speak to someone on the community team, file a 'forums and website' support ticket here, as we are not able to respond to PMs regarding moderation inquiries.
Captain
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,726
# 110
02-27-2013, 06:54 AM
Star Trek has money: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQdWUk2-FwE
Play more STO Foundry! (You can thank me later.)

A TIME TO SEARCH: ENTER MY FOUNDRY MISSION at the RISA SYSTEM in the SIRIUS SECTOR
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 07:54 PM.