Career Officer
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,118
# 31
02-27-2013, 07:22 AM
Pretty sure if you removed normal plasma torpedo critical hits you'd kill almost all the one-shots from the Gates, though it has some nasty combos, they are fair.

The queen and unimatrix spread attacks are quite often one hit without crits, even tanks don't survive the crits. They do need a lower level version of the ability. Donatra's spread needs a look at as well, its a one hit ability.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5daCTS7YGc
At 7:57 there are logs showing the gate torps crit, not the greatest log as 95% of the crits end up being the plasma fire proc, but it is there. Seeing how low the damage was on that one, my guess is the potential range of damage from these torps is huge, causing one hits on some crits and almost nothing on other shots.

The plasma fire crits are another issue, they can burn down a tank since they all critical through the duration. A series of crit fires can put everything on cool down leaving you helpless, but team mates should give you a hand.

Overall tac cubes need more sustained damage, the gates are pretty lethal, and regular cubes probably put out more damage than a tactical cube does.
Delirium Tremens
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Lieutenant
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 97
# 32
02-27-2013, 07:51 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by diogene0 View Post
What would you do to balance this nerf? Borg ships are already pathetic. They are actually the weakest NPCs in game, including at level 54/elite. If you play with the foundry, they will always lose a fight, no matter which opponent they fight.

In addition, getting rid of high yield torpedoes is extremely easy, especially with fire at will or an aceton assimilator (the perect "fire and forget" defense in stfs), so it makes the challenge... unchallenging. So easily overcomed.

So, do you plan to give Borg ships some more abilities if you remove some kinetic damage? Or is it a simple nerf?
Oh come on...

You must realize you're in the VAST minority by claiming that the Borg are "too easy" or "pathetic", right?

Besides, Borticus is only talking about one-shots here, which I think even the elitists like yourself can claim are a freakin' joke.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,118
# 33
02-27-2013, 08:05 AM
On elite they are a joke, there is no team work or anything else an elite should require.
Delirium Tremens
Completed Starbase, Embassy, Mine, Spire and No Win Scenario
Nothing to do anymore.
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Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,202
# 34
02-28-2013, 08:46 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by pantsmaster916 View Post
Oh come on...

You must realize you're in the VAST minority by claiming that the Borg are "too easy" or "pathetic", right?

Besides, Borticus is only talking about one-shots here, which I think even the elitists like yourself can claim are a freakin' joke.
I've been asking for a 3rd "real elite" difficulty level with many other forum users for some time now. Since season 7 actually. But as long as we don't have that nerfing the WEAKEST npcs in game just makes no sense to me. Even Starbase 24 is more challenging that infected space "elite", in a way, if you're trying to solo a specific area.

I'm not saying one shots sould exist (it happens to me on very rare occasions), I'm saying that if the borg lose something then they should be given something in return.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 228
# 35
03-04-2013, 10:31 PM
one shot kill is something without any interest. No gameplay. No challenge. Why? Because there is nothing to strike back one shot kill. One shot kill and invisible death are something from lazy devs mind. And everyone knows how much those such cryptic devs are lazy.
http://i.imgur.com/RVocq.jpg
Lieutenant
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 99
# 36
03-18-2013, 08:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by pantsmaster916 View Post
Oh come on...

You must realize you're in the VAST minority by claiming that the Borg are "too easy" or "pathetic", right?

Besides, Borticus is only talking about one-shots here, which I think even the elitists like yourself can claim are a freakin' joke.
Well... okay, maybe I'm in this minority too, but hear me out here:
Working from two basic premises (1: the idea of an STF is to require team-work; 2: all major roles--striker, tank, healer, controller-- should be accounted for in an STF for best results)... yes, the borg are "too easy." Personally, I'd reserve the label of "pathetic" for just the Assmilated Carrier of Cure Space, who, in my opinion, is a complete joke*.

The problem as I see it is this: as the Borg and the STFs are laid out, only one of our four space-based STFs require more than a very small amount of very basic teamwork, and I can't help but feel that part of this is due to the borg being, by and large, slightly under-gunned, and slightly to substantially underpowered defensively, depending on which ship you're looking at.

When I say that the borg are "slightly under-gunned," I am, of course, setting one-shot insta-deaths aside. Except under specific conditions (see later quote) one-shot kills are a very poor way of making the Borg challenging-- it does not allow the tank to stick around to tank properly, or the healer to fix the ship who's under attack, and most of these one-shots are unlikely to be affected by most controller-role debuffs.
If the standard Borg in STFs did a little bit more DPS, but with the spikes tamped down a little bit, that might work a little better from the perspective of encouraging/requiring team-work. The higher DPS means that lone escorts get burned down if they try to Rambo a cube on their own, but a tank can keep the enemy's attention for long enough for the escort to do his job.
Middling DPS with the occasional arbitrary one-shot prevents this core role interaction from functioning properly, as I understand it.

... or I could be wrong. That's not an uncommon occurrence with me. :P

*Regarding the Assimilated Carrier: While I do maintain that the poor thing's an absolute joke of an STF boss, the carrier shows up at the end of what's probably the hardest of the core six STFs, so the party's usually earned a bit of a lop-sided beat-down by that point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dapperdrake View Post
one shot kill is something without any interest. No gameplay. No challenge. Why? Because there is nothing to strike back one shot kill. One shot kill and invisible death are something from lazy devs mind. And everyone knows how much those such cryptic devs are lazy.
I agree with you in part, Drake. Arbitrary one-shots (such as eating a 50k damage standard plasma torp from a UM in Hive Onslaught) do very little to increase challenge in an effective manner. This is 100% correct.

However, conditional, triggered, or otherwise avoidable one-shots can certainly add both challenge and interest.

For example, the plasma energy bolts that the Unimatrix command ships fire can be avoided with a combination of speed, firepower, and/or movement debuffs, when combined with a bit of situational awareness (this last part is where I tend to fail). That adds a degree of challenge and interest, since now you're relying on either your wits and reaction, or the assistance of your party's controller to keep you safe. Interest!

Another example could be Donatra's high-yield photon torpedo attack, which I tend to class as a one-shot kill in anything but the most extreme cases. Because Donatra is polite enough to declare quite distinctly when she's going to use it, and whom she intends to use it on, it can be avoided by very quickly getting out of range or out of her forward arc.

The same could be said for the borg queen's aceton-'splodey-nova-of-doom (which establishes a fairly wide null zone around her, but opens up for a few minutes once she's used it), though it would be nice if it had a slightly clearer tell.

Even the Unimatrix torpedo spread of mega-death could be classed in here if its recharge time was just a little longer so that it only took one science officer keep it suppressed with subnuc.

Like what I said before, I could be wrong. I'd love to hear a counter-argument.
Civilly put, of course. :)

Last edited by miri2; 03-18-2013 at 08:08 PM. Reason: Tweaked spacing to mitigate "wall of text" look.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 165
# 37
03-21-2013, 12:57 AM
The main reason why standard borg are weak defensively is because of their size. On cubes and higher a cruiser can both broadside and fire non-wide angle torpedo's at them. They are also really slow and/or stationary meaning you can't miss. Sphere's are surprisingly the most dangerous standard Borg due to having speed, relatively small size and a Cube's tricks. (Shield Neutralizer and Assimilate Ship.)

The 'invisible one shot' is Torpedo Spread III'd torpedo's that crit. Wasn't always just a Borg-Only problem, the Heavy Photon Torpedo turrets in the Klingon Scout STF used to have it and it one shot people there too.
Now it seems they just sit there and don't fire anything though they still use High Yield and Spread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by miri2 View Post
Another example could be Donatra's high-yield photon torpedo attack, which I tend to class as a one-shot kill in anything but the most extreme cases.
To clarify this statement above, that's not a 'High Yield Photon Torpedo attack' that's her Scimitar's 'Cascading Biogenic Pulse' a Thalaron weapon. Nice big tell and nice big damage if you don't get out of the green stuff. She unfortunately also has access to Torpedo Spread III, so you might have gotten confused.

One-shots you can avoid are good, interesting mechanics. The Scimitar's Thalaron weapon, High Yield Torpedo's and Plasma Bolt's, the Lance weapons are all good. The Borg Queen's Aceton Wave could use more of a tell but you can survive it on normal if you at the edge of it's range.

One shot's that deal between 30-50k damage are fine as well because they are only one-shots because you're in an escort and don't have that amount of health. I've taken a 49k crit in my Cruiser from a gate and survived. Frankly I much prefer a Gate that can defend itself to a Gate that you can only hurt every 10-15 seconds every 3 minutes.

Glad to see that the Invisibly Torpedo Spread Of Doom is getting looked into. That's really the only inexcusable One-Shot in the game.

Last edited by yargomesh; 03-21-2013 at 12:59 AM. Reason: Added Quote.
Lieutenant
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 99
# 38
03-21-2013, 05:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by yargomesh View Post
The main reason why standard borg are weak defensively is because of their size. On cubes and higher a cruiser can both broadside and fire non-wide angle torpedo's at them. They are also really slow and/or stationary meaning you can't miss. Sphere's are surprisingly the most dangerous standard Borg due to having speed, relatively small size and a Cube's tricks. (Shield Neutralizer and Assimilate Ship.)
Being huge and stationary and huge is certainly something that I take advantage of when fighting cubes in my support cruiser, but the fact that I've seen escorts solo and obliterate cubes in Khitomer Space: Elite (Or Khitomer Vortex: Elite, if you prefer) is a little disheartening, since I really get the impression by the level design that you're supposed to gang two ships up on those.
That said, yeah, the spheres probably are the scariest ship in the Borg arsenal. I'm pretty sure that in Hive Onslaught, the spheres are just as big of a threat as the tactical cubes!

Quote:
Originally Posted by yargomesh View Post
To clarify this statement above, that's not a 'High Yield Photon Torpedo attack' that's her Scimitar's 'Cascading Biogenic Pulse' a Thalaron weapon. Nice big tell and nice big damage if you don't get out of the green stuff. She unfortunately also has access to Torpedo Spread III, so you might have gotten confused.
No, I did mean what I wrote. The Cascading Biogenic Pulse (so that's what it's called! My client always calls it "an unknown ability." :P) is a pretty well-made one-shot (when she doesn't cheat!), but I actually was referring to her high-yield photon torpedoes there. She'll unleash a salvo of three or four photon torpedoes from time to time that hit like a freight train. Then again, my perspective is a bit skewed by the fact that I fly an escort and a low-resistance support cruiser, so it may be less one-shotty than I believed.
If it can be ridden out and tanked by a cruiser with some extra heal-support, that's awesome-- anything that favors a role other than DPS is to be encouraged, after all.

... that said, yeah. The trademarked Borg torps-fall-everyone-dies spread is an insanely obnoxious ability when it one-shots half the party every 30-60 seconds.

That doesn't necessarily mean it needs to do less damage, per se. For instance, if the cooldown on that spread was cranked up to eleven so that a vigilant science captain could keep it offline by regular applications of subnucleonic beam, I wouldn't really have that much of a problem with it.
If it gave a tell before murdering the party, perhaps everyone could get away from the one doomed person, who would have a brief window to brace and throw every defensive switch on his HUD into the PANIC! position (or for a sci to use Scramble Sensors and hope for friendly fire).
Alternatively, yeah, one could just tone down the damage so that an escort can survive if (and only if!) it's braced. That could certainly work just fine as long as the spread's recharge time is also on a 60-second-or-so cooldown.

I dunnow-- those could all be terrible ideas. I'm just throwing them out there.
*Shrugs* It's what I do.
Lieutenant
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 61
# 39
03-21-2013, 06:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by miri2 View Post
Being huge and stationary and huge is certainly something that I take advantage of when fighting cubes in my support cruiser, but the fact that I've seen escorts solo and obliterate cubes in Khitomer Space: Elite (Or Khitomer Vortex: Elite, if you prefer) is a little disheartening, since I really get the impression by the level design that you're supposed to gang two ships up on those.
That said, yeah, the spheres probably are the scariest ship in the Borg arsenal. I'm pretty sure that in Hive Onslaught, the spheres are just as big of a threat as the tactical cubes!


No, I did mean what I wrote. The Cascading Biogenic Pulse (so that's what it's called! My client always calls it "an unknown ability." ) is a pretty well-made one-shot (when she doesn't cheat!), but I actually was referring to her high-yield photon torpedoes there. She'll unleash a salvo of three or four photon torpedoes from time to time that hit like a freight train. Then again, my perspective is a bit skewed by the fact that I fly an escort and a low-resistance support cruiser, so it may be less one-shotty than I believed.
If it can be ridden out and tanked by a cruiser with some extra heal-support, that's awesome-- anything that favors a role other than DPS is to be encouraged, after all.

... that said, yeah. The trademarked Borg torps-fall-everyone-dies spread is an insanely obnoxious ability when it one-shots half the party every 30-60 seconds.

That doesn't necessarily mean it needs to do less damage, per se. For instance, if the cooldown on that spread was cranked up to eleven so that a vigilant science captain could keep it offline by regular applications of subnucleonic beam, I wouldn't really have that much of a problem with it.
If it gave a tell before murdering the party, perhaps everyone could get away from the one doomed person, who would have a brief window to brace and throw every defensive switch on his HUD into the PANIC! position (or for a sci to use Scramble Sensors and hope for friendly fire).
Alternatively, yeah, one could just tone down the damage so that an escort can survive if (and only if!) it's braced. That could certainly work just fine as long as the spread's recharge time is also on a 60-second-or-so cooldown.

I dunnow-- those could all be terrible ideas. I'm just throwing them out there.
*Shrugs* It's what I do.
Is it my imagination or is almost everyone trying to propose not-so-obvious-at-first-glance buffs to escorts' defensive capabilities and survivability? Getting points into Threat Control or using a healboat build is even now balancing at the edge of being totaly idiotic and very rarely useful (in PvE)... We should be trying to come up with ways of making all ship and player classes useful, even necessary, in a PvE team, not just pushing the game even further into Escorts Online Oblivion...
Lieutenant
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 99
# 40
03-21-2013, 08:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by djdamc View Post
Is it my imagination or is almost everyone trying to propose not-so-obvious-at-first-glance buffs to escorts' defensive capabilities and survivability? Getting points into Threat Control or using a healboat build is even now balancing at the edge of being totaly idiotic and very rarely useful (in PvE)... We should be trying to come up with ways of making all ship and player classes useful, even necessary, in a PvE team, not just pushing the game even further into Escorts Online Oblivion...
Oh dear, I was hoping that what I had come up with might be some small help to tanks and maybe even the beleaguered science vessels.

I had hoped that the first possible fix (debuffing the heck out of recharge time on the spread) would be granting people who were at least running science captains a role, since the idea is to make the spread hard-countered by Subnucleonic Beam.

The thought I had with the second possibility, of the obvious-tell-and-target-indication-before-firing, would allow a high-resistance cruiser to tank the torp spread by keeping the Borg ship's attention and activating every defensive ability it's got to pull through, while everyone else gets the heck away from it before the torps launch.
If a tank isn't keeping the Borg's attention when it's ready to fire it's death-spread, the escort gets a brief tell informing him that he is so dead, and give him one to two seconds to contemplate this fact.

The third thought I had of just debuffing the damage so that a braced escort could barely survive it if at full shields and hull (which is not presently the case) is the easiest possibility of the three and my least favorite, admittedly. But if I understand durability scaling correctly, the escort is SOL if it's damaged in any meaningful way (requiring that cruisers and science vessels provide regular heal-support like they're supposed to), a science vessel should be able to pull through fairly easily if braced or at full shields and hull, and a tank-cruiser should be... okay. Not great, but okay. It's then dependent on the heal-boats to do their thing so the escorts don't properly detonate when the borg activate their Beam: Fire At Will power (I've noticed cubes, tactical cubes, and unimatricies are quite fond of this power).

That was my thinking, anyway. If my understanding of the numbers and scaling is wrong, then that might explain why my attempts to encourage tanks and heal-boats turned into a stealth-buff for escorts.
The current implementation of the Borg torp-spread-of-doom serves no one. It kills science vessels, escorts, and non-tank cruisers immediately and with no way to avoid it, while its wide firing arc makes it near-impossible to "tank" the torp spread in a way that keeps the rest of the party safe.

If my ideas would be counter-productive, I really do appreciate being told this-- and I love details of why when possible. Otherwise, I don't learn. :P
What would be your proposal?
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