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Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 5,368
# 11
02-25-2013, 08:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by borticuscryptic View Post
I just took a look and verified the data.

Transphasic Torpedo Spreads are indeed doing 40% Bleedthrough. Their tooltips, however, have not been updated to reflect the proper internal data.

This will be fixed shortly. It's only a description/text change.
That's good. Does this also apply for Transphasic High Yield?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mandoknight89 View Post
Multipliers in general favor high values to multiply. Since Quantum torpedoes have modest cooldown combined with high base damage, they are superior weapons when combined with skills.
I think DDIS more means that Quantums are buffed by X%, while Transphasics are buffed by Y%. He is wondering why Transphasics are only being buffed by Y%, instead of X%. Yes, even if they were buffed by X%, they'd still do less damage, but there would be more of a scale to torp damage.

Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,241
# 12
02-26-2013, 06:00 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by borticuscryptic View Post
I just took a look and verified the data.

Transphasic Torpedo Spreads are indeed doing 40% Bleedthrough. Their tooltips, however, have not been updated to reflect the proper internal data.

This will be fixed shortly. It's only a description/text change.
Borticus,

Any chance of transphasics being given a heavy torpedo version of itself?

High Yield -> Heavy Torp.

Heavy torp= 80% penetration with some damage buff. This heavy torp is as fast as a regular transphasic torp.

This would make the 'phasics rather unique and quite functional.

Finally, could you please clarify a mechanic concerning bleedthrough?

If a 'phasic torp does 10k dmg and hits a shield..

40% of that damage bleeds through. So 4000.

That 4k damage.. is it then mitigated by armor kinetic resists or is it applied to hull directly, bypassing kinetic resists?

I ask because I find that my sci-capt bird of prey stacking atkbeta3 and sensor scan and disruptor proc does not seem to be doing a visibly higher amount of damage than without said debuffs. Vs. players who for certain have at least 50% kinetic resist.
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Cryptic Studios Team
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,138
# 13
02-26-2013, 08:56 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmdrskyfaller View Post
If a 'phasic torp does 10k dmg and hits a shield..

40% of that damage bleeds through. So 4000.

That 4k damage.. is it then mitigated by armor kinetic resists or is it applied to hull directly, bypassing kinetic resists?
Any damage that penetrates a shield is still subject to resistance scores. In this example, the 4000 that penetrates the target's shield will be reduced according to their Kinetic Resistance Rating.

And actually... I don't have the figures in front of me at the moment to verify, but I'm fairly certain that T-phasics do 40% additional bleedthrough. Non-resilient shield arrays already allow 10% through, resulting in a total of 50%. Resilient shields would let through 45% from a T-phasic.

As for the concern that special Torpedo Modes benefit Quantums disproportionately... there is some merit to that claim. And it is, as another poster pointed out, because amplifying a large number by a set percentage yields a larger benefit than amplifying a smaller number by the same percentage. It's possible that those figures could use another review, but it's also possible that they are fine where they are due to the additional benefits/drawbacks of using different types of torpedoes.
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Survivor of Remus
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# 14
02-26-2013, 10:06 AM
Borticus, have you guys put any thought into rebalancing the basic torps so that they share the same base DPS, but vary according to firing time and secondary utility? Or maybe putting damage increases from consoles on a similar diminishing returns curve as damage resists? On paper that seems like it would help out some, but you're the one with the actual real-world experience on how these things go. I love systems design and am always interested in hearing how complex systems like these play out over time.

EDIT: Huh, assuming STO wiki is correct, the more powerful torpedoes have much lower DPS in exchange for increasingly ridiculous spike damage.

Last edited by squatsauce; 02-26-2013 at 10:14 AM.
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# 15
02-26-2013, 10:24 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by borticuscryptic View Post
As for the concern that special Torpedo Modes benefit Quantums disproportionately... there is some merit to that claim. And it is, as another poster pointed out, because amplifying a large number by a set percentage yields a larger benefit than amplifying a smaller number by the same percentage. It's possible that those figures could use another review, but it's also possible that they are fine where they are due to the additional benefits/drawbacks of using different types of torpedoes.
If you don't mind me saying Borticus, if Transphasics were boosted to match Quantums when you use HY and such, the numbers probably wouldn't jump too much. Honestly, if this applied for all torp types with flat numbers, it'd provide at least a rough scale on torpedo damage and might make em easier to balance IMO.

In turn, their effectiveness or lack there of could be better seen. Like...let's say...

A photon did 1000 damage against hull
A chroniton did 1250 damage
A quantum did 2500
A transphasic did 1500
A tricobalt did 5000

If you use HY 3, and say that was a boost of 200%, that would make the numbers...

Photon: 2000 damage
Chroniton: 2500 damage
Quantum: 5000 damage
Transphasic: 3000 damage
Tricobalt: 10000 damage

Already there are a bunch of big differences between the torps, but you can see their scaling.

As it stands, they all get different boosts depending on torp type. These are made up numbers of course. Let's just pretend...

Photon: 175% boost: 1750 damage
Chroniton: 120% boost: 1500 damage
Quantum: 250% boost: 6250 damage
Transphasic: 150% boost: 2250 damage
Tricobalt: 300% boost: 15000 damage

All of those numbers, while they might be more balanced per their individual torpedo, it can be rather confusing because the abilities affect different torps so much.

Now, from all this, I'm not saying that the different torp types shouldn't have their own advantages and disadvantages, but those should be off-set by their base damage and cooldown timers.

A chroniton can still do it's rather nice debuff, and still have a lower base damage, but be boosted on an equal level when I use HY 3, compared to Quantum which would gain the same %-boost. The quantums would still hit hardest regardless.

On top of all of that, at most you would still see torpedo abilities being fired every 15 seconds. So any other time, the torps would still only be doing normal damage, which would just be that, normal damage and they'd still be a-ok.

Adjusting the %-boosts higher in general when using the torp BOFF powers might also make other torps more used because of it as compared with mostly only using photons, quantums, and transphasics. (without getting into special and unique torps)



It's also worth noting that this different scaling thing only applies for torps and their two BOFF abilities (I don't think it affects mines too much, could be wrong). All the energy weapon BOFF powers affect their respective weapon types equally regardless, and all the energy weapon types all have the exact same base damage.

If I slot 6 Disruptor beam arrays, I know that their base damage will be exactly the same (before modifiers of course), as slotting 6 phaser beam arrays. And using BFAW 1 will give me the same effect pretty much, regardless of which BA type I have.



I know this has been a long post, but I really wanted to mention all this, and while you probably won't reply or reply to much, thanks for hopefully reading it.

Captain
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# 16
02-26-2013, 11:17 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by borticuscryptic View Post
Any damage that penetrates a shield is still subject to resistance scores.

...

As for the concern that special Torpedo Modes benefit Quantums disproportionately... there is some merit to that claim. And it is, as another poster pointed out, because amplifying a large number by a set percentage yields a larger benefit than amplifying a smaller number by the same percentage. It's possible that those figures could use another review, but it's also possible that they are fine where they are due to the additional benefits/drawbacks of using different types of torpedoes.
Ah thank you. I'm not seeing this with the 'phasics but its good to know thats how its supposed to be.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mimey2 View Post
If you don't mind me saying Borticus, if Transphasics were boosted to match Quantums when you use HY and such, the numbers probably wouldn't jump too much. Honestly, if this applied for all torp types with flat numbers, it'd provide at least a rough scale on torpedo damage and might make em easier to balance IMO.

In turn, their effectiveness or lack there of could be better seen.
Here's an alternate solution: equal out the damage of all torpedoes (after factoring in timers). Make the 2ndary effect of each torpedo be the very thing that high yield/spread buffs.

Secondary effects become stronger per tier of torpedo boff ability.

Photons: bonus damage to shields (HY/SPRD)
Quantums: bonus damage to hull (HY/SPRD)
Transphasics: bonus shield penetration % (HY/SPRD),
Plasma: bonus plasma fire damage (spread), bonus plasma energy damage (heavy)
Tricobalt: 5s subspace rift stun (heavy), multiple warheads (spread).
Chroniton: 5s 80% snare (hvy), 5s 80% loss of turn rate (sprd)
Thermionic: fine as it is now 2ndary effect.
Temporal Disruptor: fine as it is

Special mentions:
Ferengi Rockets: should not be affected by any boff power.. but they are.
Hyper-Plasma: Follows Plasma rules.
Omega Torpedo: Should be changed to transphasic damage type/rules. After all, Omega is the result of Janeway's legacy and we do remember what torps she used dont we?
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Rihannsu
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# 17
02-26-2013, 05:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmdrskyfaller View Post
Omega Torpedo: Should be changed to transphasic damage type/rules. After all, Omega is the result of Janeway's legacy and we do remember what torps she used dont we?
except that the omega torpedo launchers were designed by reverse-engineering the plasma energy bolt launchers found in the wreckage of unimatrix command ships which, as their name suggests, deal plasma damage (well, kinetic damage with a plasma flavor)

why would a weapon resulting from one particular torpedo type have its damage type changed to a completely different one?
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# 18
02-27-2013, 03:29 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by borticuscryptic View Post
Any damage that penetrates a shield is still subject to resistance scores. In this example, the 4000 that penetrates the target's shield will be reduced according to their Kinetic Resistance Rating.

And actually... I don't have the figures in front of me at the moment to verify, but I'm fairly certain that T-phasics do 40% additional bleedthrough. Non-resilient shield arrays already allow 10% through, resulting in a total of 50%. Resilient shields would let through 45% from a T-phasic.

As for the concern that special Torpedo Modes benefit Quantums disproportionately... there is some merit to that claim. And it is, as another poster pointed out, because amplifying a large number by a set percentage yields a larger benefit than amplifying a smaller number by the same percentage. It's possible that those figures could use another review, but it's also possible that they are fine where they are due to the additional benefits/drawbacks of using different types of torpedoes.
With my tests the tactical officers are mostly the only that benefit from the transphasics, where as sci's damage resistance doesn't help that much and engineers being they don't do any special damage increase on their's its obvious there. From the KDF standpoint on the b'rel the issues with torpedo/mine setups photons, quantums, and chronitons are utterly useless in the b'rel modes for the goal of destroying targets because they do more damage to shields than they do to hull which doesn't help. As said transphasics are useful if you are a tactical officer but with the 2 other classes they don't pack enough punch mostly because their base damage is so low to begin with. Tricobalts are a given they aren't very useful unless you have a team focus fireing or depend on luck for them to do something. Plasma torps/mines by design is great until you get to PvP and you have Hazard Emitters to pretty much counter the whole design of them.

Pretty much for balance purposes so they can keep up with cannons and beams for anyone who would be wanting a torp/mine boat setup for intrepid, armitage, D7/K'maj, or B'rel... I think the damage each type of torpedo does needs to be looked at, as well as any new doff options that could be added, or skills out there that aren't much use so it wouldn't be an I win button but some way to use some of these skills for making new tactics where you aren't just fireing torps or mines and beating someone but able to actually use more tactics than fire hy or dispersal pattern. I mostly like to see it for the b'rel because it does need some love but there are other ships out there that could be looked at as in the same area in both factions where it could help out on the issue of who is the better shield tank wins. There have been a lot of things done in this area but I just believe more needs to be done.
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# 19
02-27-2013, 08:52 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by shadowfang240 View Post
except that the omega torpedo launchers were designed by reverse-engineering the plasma energy bolt launchers found in the wreckage of unimatrix command ships which, as their name suggests, deal plasma damage (well, kinetic damage with a plasma flavor)

why would a weapon resulting from one particular torpedo type have its damage type changed to a completely different one?
maybe because the current omega torp sucks?

I mean honestly now.. the thing does less damage than a regular plasma torpedo when used in high yield. The only time its of any worth is when firing it on autofire due to its 5-torp charge system.

If the omega was like the unimatrix plasma-bombs then we'd be talking.. but this 'de-spawn' ship effect is just visual crap fluff.
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Rihannsu
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 4,008
# 20
02-27-2013, 08:59 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmdrskyfaller View Post
maybe because the current omega torp sucks?

I mean honestly now.. the thing does less damage than a regular plasma torpedo when used in high yield. The only time its of any worth is when firing it on autofire due to its 5-torp charge system.

If the omega was like the unimatrix plasma-bombs then we'd be talking.. but this 'de-spawn' ship effect is just visual crap fluff.
well, a simple enough fix for that would be to just increase the damage, make it a little more useful for its (overpriced) cost
Quote:
[Combat (Self)] Your Kumari Phaser Wing Cannons - Overload deals 128698 (67705) Phaser Damage(Critical) to Borg Bird-of-Prey.
don't mess with the andorians
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Originally Posted by starswordc View Post
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