Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 432
# 11
02-26-2013, 03:03 PM
Rage nothing, that just screams a problem with the system if it allows such extreams.

Not really my point though. I'm chasing after a root cause.
Survivor of Remus
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 318
# 12
02-26-2013, 03:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by loading159 View Post
you do not have to be a hardcore pvper to be good, and you do not have to have the best of the best gear to be good.
I don't, actually, and, so far, I do pretty good in PvP. That said, I've still had ships shredded in under 3 seconds by the raw DPS output that escorts can produce. That's broken. Also, the ways you can defend yourself from that sort of ridiculously over-powered assault don't regenerate fast enough to keep up with what an escort can do. Skill helps, of course, but in this case your skill is really about how you can get around broken PvP interactions.

I don't ever really need to consider how to deal with other science ships or cruisers. I only need to worry about surviving ridiculous escort DPS spikes. PvP play is dominated by that tactic because there are few viable alternatives.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 727
# 13
02-26-2013, 03:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mimey2 View Post
It wasn't JUST PvPers. How quickly folks always point fingers.

In PvE, people were using tric mines to one-shot gates and such, breaking the missions in a way.
oh baaawwwww, least it absolutely ensured the optional was won.
On the subject of Abramsverse stuff in STO: http://massively.joystiq.com/2013/07...l-rivera-part/
And more reasons against JJ Trek: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DiQ9piVgtWM
And even more: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=REOjxvQPQNQ
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 784
# 14
02-27-2013, 01:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by squatsauce View Post
I don't, actually, and, so far, I do pretty good in PvP. That said, I've still had ships shredded in under 3 seconds by the raw DPS output that escorts can produce. That's broken. Also, the ways you can defend yourself from that sort of ridiculously over-powered assault don't regenerate fast enough to keep up with what an escort can do. Skill helps, of course, but in this case your skill is really about how you can get around broken PvP interactions.

I don't ever really need to consider how to deal with other science ships or cruisers. I only need to worry about surviving ridiculous escort DPS spikes. PvP play is dominated by that tactic because there are few viable alternatives.
The only way you can get shredded in 3 seconds is if you do not have the proper gear and are caught by surprise. IF you actually have the situational awareness to defend yourself before an attack you can survive. Pop a tac team when you see an escort use a Attack Pattern Alpha, or if you hear (yes, there is an audio cue) decloak. That will be enough to buy you some time to use EPtS or another shield heal.

A fully buffed alpha strike only last about 15 seconds. After that, a tactical escorts DPS levels drops to a nominal level and you can mount a counter offensive. In a pinch, such tricks such as Jam Sensors or Scramble Sensors can ruin an alpha strike.

In reality, what makes a damage spike devastating is when it is timed between your healing cooldown. That is where pressure damage from a heavy cruiser comes in. They make you use your heals on minor damage, and then an escort spikes you before you can cooldown.
Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 432
# 15
02-27-2013, 02:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kyeto13 View Post
The only way you can get shredded in 3 seconds is if you do not have the proper gear and are caught by surprise. IF you actually have the situational awareness to defend yourself before an attack you can survive.
And if I were to ask you if you could tell me the difference between a system that's easy to abuse and a system that works, could you tell me the difference? Either way not the point.

The point? As you just said, it can be done. We just got hit with a wambulance causing tricobolt update because as you said "you can get shredded in under 3 seconds". Yet the ability for escorts and tactical captains to do the exact same affect from greater range and less warning with HDC remains. It's a inconsistency.

Either it was right to remove tricobolt mine super damage and general damage dealing by tactical escorts that allows them to do the same needs be nerfed into the ground also -OR- it was wrong and tricobolt needs to be put back the way it was.

Last edited by resoundingenvoy; 02-27-2013 at 02:35 PM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 119
# 16
02-27-2013, 02:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by resoundingenvoy View Post
The point? As you just said, it can be done. We just got hit with a wambulance causing tricobolt update because as you said "you can get shredded in under 3 seconds". Yet the ability for escorts and tactical captains to do the exact same affect from greater range and less warning with HDC remains. It's a inconsistency.
The difference is with just a couple of readily available (to all ship classes) abilities you can drastically reduce the damage received by an Escort that's fully buffed. With the Tric Mines as they were, it made no difference how much resistance you were running* as the numbers dealt were so high that you were in a bad way after the first hit, the other 1, 2 or 3 mines were just gravy. And that's assuming you didn't just get instapopped by the AoE splash damage from another mine hitting your Tric'.
For PvE the mines were just retarded because they required absolutely no skill at all to deal insane amounts of damage. You keep mentioning Tac Escorts yet those Tac Escorts that are taking a beating and dealing good damage are running with buff bars as wide as the minimap, the mines were dealing even greater burst damage with no other effort than hitting the buff for the dispersal patter and then dropping the mine.

*I seriously dislike MMO PvP but do occasionally dabble to help friends/ fleet mates to test new builds. When I can be hit by a 3 pack of 75k hits from a mine that I can't even see due to a mask affect, yeah. I can see why people wanted them fixed, for PvE they allowed (still do, IMO) massive damage to be dealt with no effort and for those that enjoy PvP, they suck a lot of fun out of things. One shots suck in PvE, they're nothing but cheap shots. It's no different when an invisible mine dropped by a player one shots you through full shields, either.
_________________________________________
Concessimus etiam omnibus liberis hominibus regni nostri, et dedit pro nobis et heredibus nostris in perpetuum, quibus libertates subscriptas, habendas et tenendas eis et heredibus suis de nobis et heredibus nostris in perpetuum.
Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 432
# 17
02-27-2013, 04:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mwgacy1 View Post
The difference is with just a couple of readily available (to all ship classes) abilities you can drastically reduce the damage received by an Escort that's fully buffed.
That not only have to be taken to survive, but also available within that one second gap (If the server is even kind enough to respond in time) before your so heavily damaged the battle is decided.

Edit: This is only a relation to the point though.

Quote:
You keep mentioning Tac Escorts yet those Tac Escorts that are taking a beating and dealing good damage are running with buff bars as wide as the minimap, the mines were dealing even greater burst damage with no other effort than hitting the buff for the dispersal patter and then dropping the mine.
Don't link the two directly, I don't directly. I'll grant you 70K+ hits are nasty, but here its the thing and why "connect the two": Guess how much damage a single volley has to do to burn through 20K+ shields and 80%+ of 50K+ hull without defending abilities active? How much damage where the super mines doing again?

There is a technical difference in how the damage is delivered. There is no practical difference in the .02seconds the server takes to tally the damage. (Edit:That would be the point.)

Last edited by resoundingenvoy; 02-27-2013 at 04:20 PM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 119
# 18
02-27-2013, 04:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by resoundingenvoy View Post
That not only have to be taken to survive, but also available within that one second gap (If the server is even kind enough to respond in time) before your so heavily damaged the battle is decided.
EPtS and Tac Team aren't on and off abilities, EPtS can be chained with 100% uptime and will drastically reduce any damage you receive whilst Tac Team lasts for 10 seconds and can be run with 66% uptime so server latency is a non issue.

I also don't see the issue with having to run multiple damage resistance buffs to mitigate the damage received from multiple damage buffs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by resoundingenvoy View Post
Don't link the two directly, I don't directly. I'll grant you 70K+ hits are nasty, but here its the thing and why "connect the two": Guess how much damage a single volley has to do to burn through 20K+ shields and 80%+ of 50K+ hull without defending abilities active? How much damage where the super mines doing again?
They are linked directly though, you're comparing damage dealt but from two sources: an Escort with multiple stacked damage buffs and a single damage buff affecting a mine that's dropped, forgotten and waiting to instapop someone that can't even see it's there. If you're going to keep using this .02 seconds as an issue, then the mines were a much bigger problem for those trying to out-heal and not resist the damage.

Guess how much damage is mitigated by running simple Ensign level abilities that buff your shield damage resistance that will mean that the big attack that's incoming, using multiple stacked damage buffs, will now have to burn through all four facings and deal with damage reduction from abilities and increased shield power?
Of course, that's another issue with the mines. They dealt all their damage in one hit so Tac Team wouldn't help as the damage being dealt would overwhelm it's redistribution, Escorts are dealing it over 5-10 seconds so Tac Team does an amazing job of making sure that you're hurt but in one piece at the other end.


Quote:
Originally Posted by resoundingenvoy View Post
There is a technical difference in how the damage is delivered. There is no practical difference in the .02seconds the server takes to tally the damage. (Edit:That would be the point.)
The only attack that would have been an issue with server latency (or whatever this .02 seconds is) is a Tric' mine due to the instant damage, Escorts are dealing that damage over several seconds and on top of that shield resistance buffs can be active for 100% of the time so again, latency isn't an issue.
_________________________________________
Concessimus etiam omnibus liberis hominibus regni nostri, et dedit pro nobis et heredibus nostris in perpetuum, quibus libertates subscriptas, habendas et tenendas eis et heredibus suis de nobis et heredibus nostris in perpetuum.

Last edited by mwgacy1; 02-27-2013 at 05:21 PM.
Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 432
# 19
02-27-2013, 07:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mwgacy1 View Post
EPtS and Tac Team aren't on and off abilities, EPtS can be chained with 100% uptime and will drastically reduce any damage you receive whilst Tac Team lasts for 10 seconds and can be run with 66% uptime so server latency is a non issue.

I also don't see the issue with having to run multiple damage resistance buffs to mitigate the damage received from multiple damage buffs.
Let me see if I follow this right, because either I missed something or you just shot your self in the foot.

Resoundingenoy: 60K+ in one HDC volly is not cool.
Mwgacy1: It's balanced, you can take a counter.
Resoundingenoy: No, I have take that counter.
Mwgacy1: No. You have to take that counter twice or die, so everything is alright.

The problem? It's not optional. It's not if I don't have it I'll suffer for it, but be ok because I have all these other shiny options to choose from. It's taking both to extremes and choking everything else out.

--------

Ok, as for the rest? Let tell you I mean and ask if you still stand by what you said.

Where did I get the 0.02 seconds?

Mines do their damage in one big hit.

DHC don't do the damage in one hit. However, A full volley will impact and total to a likewise absurd number in less time then it takes the server to register and carry out a command from a defender to do something defensive. So, I think the difference in time passed between single mine hit and a cannon volly to be moot.

More clear or less clear? Still want to stand by what you said?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 165
# 20
02-27-2013, 09:49 PM
honestly I feel like this topic is just about people complaining that they have to take survivability abilities so they don't die.

thats like looking at steaming hot coffe thats melting the lid, and then pouring it on your face, and then complaining that its the coffees fault when you could have taken the precaution of drinking it carefully. so what are you going to complain the coffee must be served cold and make everyone suffer? or are you going to adjust your ways and drink it carefully?

Escorts have to take attack patterns to deal massive.

so you have to take abilities to survive.

now you complain that the server reaction time is slow....ok so what? see below

how about this scenerio
emergency power to shields has 100% up time so this eliminates the server lag time issue
tac team has 66% up time, ok I see you can die when this is down. but escorts also have down time on there damage buffs.

so your flying a cruiser in an arena, you see an escort fully buffed coming at you. so what your telling me you wait untill its within weapon range to activate your defense buffs? because if you do then thats just a BAD idea, and yea, that escort will probably kill you because you activate your defensive buffs at severly the wrong time. see below

your flying your cruiser
escort pops up 35km away, it sees you, and turns to intercept.
your situationally aware of this so you turn accordingly and ready yourself
by now you should have your mouse on tac team, this gap is about to close, FAST.
at 15km that escort is gona activate all its buffs
attack pattern omega is going to close that last 5 km super quick
12 km, cruiser should be activating tac team
10km, escort opens fire on the cruiser
cruiser pilot judges incoming escorts damage and decides whether or not to activate
emergency power to shields
by now lets say 5 seconds have passed, attack pattern omega has 10 seconds left.
probably a good idea to hit emergency power to shields
cruisers shields regen, and are redirected by tac team
5 seconds left on attack pattern omega, cruisers tac team is offline, 5 second recharge left.
cruiser hits evasive manuvers and flys past the escort getting out of its fireing arc
the escort most likely hits evasive and turns to keep the cruiser in range
escorts fire hits the cruisers fresh shield facing.
cruisers tac team is off CD, escorts MAIN offensive buffs are now on cool down.

that is how i usually see it happen.

oh and incase someone trys to point at tric mines again.

this is how that usually goes when they one shot people.

cruiser is flying along deploying tric mines one happy day in arena
suddenly an escort appears!
the tric mines go after the escort!
escort activates tac team, emergency power to shields 2, polarize hull1, transfer shield strength 3, hazerd emitters 2, aux battery, sub space field modulator, brace for impact.!
the escort is hit for 150,000 damage by ONE tric mine! three more tric mines hit the escort!
yea, because theres a defense for 150,000 damage. thats twice as much more hull than the jem'hadar dreadnought, that can get 62,000 hull. oh, and times 4 for 4 tic mines. so basically, 600,000 damage.

so what your gona tell me that an escort can one shot your shields AND hull dealing 600,000 damage with one volley when you have tac team, emergency power to shields 2, polarize hull1, transfer shield strength 3, hazerd emitters 2, aux battery, sub space field modulator, brace for impact active?

BECAUSE THATS NOT HAPPENING. and if you say it does, then you are a liar.
Captain Moe
U.S.S. Prometheus
Fleet Multi Vector Advanced Escort
Resistance is futile

Last edited by loading159; 02-27-2013 at 10:07 PM.
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