Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 432
# 21
02-27-2013, 11:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by loading159 View Post
honestly I feel like this topic is just about people complaining that they have to take survivability abilities so they don't die.
That simplifies it down to the point what I do want to cry foul over doesn't exist anymore. Also it's a entirely separate point. I will answer this, but I will answer no more sidetracks. I'm spending all my time debating defensive walls rather then the OP.

To answer simply: No, that is not it. The most that could be said is that they cross paths at some points.

I am uninterested and treating the headache a flu causes. I want the virus gone.

loading159, All your secnarios assume I have nothing better to do then be purely offensive or spend my time watch what the other team is doing. I could just as well ask why didn't you count of 60 seconds between bursts, or watch for a dispersal pattern beta popping up.

I require a frame of reference to answer that. loading159, when is the last time you tried to do pure support? When is the last time you had to plan out your flight path in a carrier (or something else with a maximum turn rate of 6 to 9 deg/sec.) to keep from being out maneuvered too badly?

More then that, if I actually were able to show you "that an escort can one shot your shields AND hull dealing 600,000 damage with one volley", would you actually listen and read it, or would anything I say be ignored regardless because "I obviously have nothing useful to say"?

-------

A little bit further back to the OP. Don't get bogged down in the little details if you want to win me over. (At least have a plan where your going with them.) There are difference between tricobolt mines absues pre-nerf, and HDC setups.

The differences are semantics. How they do what they do is different. What they do is not.

Edit: At the very least show you know what a middle ground would look and function like.

Last edited by resoundingenvoy; 02-27-2013 at 11:33 PM.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 522
# 22
02-28-2013, 12:13 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by resoundingenvoy View Post

More then that, if I actually were able to show you "that an escort can one shot your shields AND hull dealing 600,000 damage with one volley", would you actually listen and read it, or would anything I say be ignored regardless because "I obviously have nothing useful to say"?
That sounds interesting. Ok, I'm listening.

Quote:
Originally Posted by resoundingenvoy View Post

There are difference between tricobolt mines absues pre-nerf, and HDC setups.

The differences are semantics. How they do what they do is different. What they do is not.
The earth and jupiter are both planets. That does not make them equivalent. I'm sorry, but in this case, you don't know the very semantics that you are employing to try and win your argument.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 119
# 23
02-28-2013, 03:17 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by resoundingenvoy View Post
Let me see if I follow this right, because either I missed something or you just shot your self in the foot.

Resoundingenoy: 60K+ in one HDC volly is not cool.
Mwgacy1: It's balanced, you can take a counter.
Resoundingenoy: No, I have take that counter.
Mwgacy1: No. You have to take that counter twice or die, so everything is alright.

The problem? It's not optional. It's not if I don't have it I'll suffer for it, but be ok because I have all these other shiny options to choose from. It's taking both to extremes and choking everything else out.
No, what I'm saying is this. For an Escort to have a chance at killing anything it'll have to use most, if not all, of its primary damage buffs to penetrate the defences of another (competent) player. Without those damage buffs the DHCs will be doing little, the buffs are required.
For a Tric' mine to kill anything the way they were before they required no skill at all on the part of the player, just use the dispersal pattern, drop the mine and you're done.

My argument is this: the Escort is using many of its BOff and Captain abilities to get a kill, as well as the players personal skill. The Mines were cheap one shots with no skill or effort involved at all. If someone skilled was to use them, they just became even worse. One of those is the result of a good build and skill, the other isn't. Can you guess which is which?

Quote:
Originally Posted by resoundingenvoy View Post
, as for the rest? Let tell you I mean and ask if you still stand by what you said.

Where did I get the 0.02 seconds?

Mines do their damage in one big hit.

DHC don't do the damage in one hit. However, A full volley will impact and total to a likewise absurd number in less time then it takes the server to register and carry out a command from a defender to do something defensive. So, I think the difference in time passed between single mine hit and a cannon volly to be moot.
A full volley from a CRF buffed DHC escort will hit over 8 seconds or so giving you more than enough time to react, as well as for your buffs, both those that provide a heal and those providing resistance, to help you. A one shot from a mine doesn't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by resoundingenvoy
The differences are semantics. How they do what they do is different. What they do is not.
No, the difference is that one can be resisted using the abilities available to you in game, the other is a cheap shot.
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Last edited by mwgacy1; 02-28-2013 at 03:27 AM.
Rihannsu
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,176
# 24
02-28-2013, 03:40 AM
lol im happily flying around the arena with my 29k hulled B'rel without any shields and without an Engineering BOFF..

barely getting killed once a match.

some people do not seem to be able to read the skill descriptions of APO, HE, TT, and others..

btw - for the mines TBR is also VERY helpful

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Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,000
# 25
02-28-2013, 04:26 AM
Yes a DHC toting FULLY BUFFED tactical in an escort is capable of massive damage but one on one vs a decent cruiser it will be down to skill. A well made cruiser will have emergency to shields 2 or 3 up constantly which gives something like a 20-25% shield damage resistance, combined with tactical team and its massive shields and rotate shield frequency or transfer shield strength (at moderate to high aux) and you can cut damage by 50% or more. Tactical team will ensure no facing drops during the assault too.

As for science ship they will have emergency to shields, transfer shield strength, a high level HE or polarise hull, with increased shield cap too and tactical team. They can also just null the whole attack with scramble sensors or jam sensors.

Escorts, APO full engine power or even just 50 will get you something like 84-95% defence, you should have tactical team on anyway and just pop your shield heals to increase damage resistance, less than half the shots will hit you and of those that do the damage is reduced. Alternatively just fly past them and keep out of the limited firing arc.

The OP strikes me as someone who is either with bad players that don't help each other in PvP, has been the victim of a pre made with a combo of very hard to counter consoles or just isn't experienced enough to know some of the better counters.

As for mines, to the guy saying about cruisers getting 110k+ x4 mines, most cruisers and science ships can only slot dispersal 1 or 2 giving maximum 3 mines and even then it comes at a huge disadvantage. The main problems came from once again all the damage that a tactical (and it more or less had to be) in an escort running dispersal 3 with APO1 x2 so as to keep high defence and high damage.

I'm not saying they shouldn't have done something but it made trics unusable by anyone but tacticals now. I'm very annoyed at how my sci in a wells was useful as a tric bomber (PvE, I don't PvP much at all) I could launch a gravity well, bunch up a load of probes or spheres (in the case of spheres use sensor scan) drop 3 mines while getting close and having to try hard not to die. Then I would be rewarded by them getting the spheres down to 50%health maybe more with a crit and it would usually take out the probes once all 3 mines hit. Now I'm luck to kill probes with them and as much debuffs as I can put on the targets with my limited tactical slots.

Someone mentioned about an upper limit on damage, I think that would certainly have been much better in the tricobalt case.

Last edited by bpharma; 02-28-2013 at 04:29 AM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 136
# 26
02-28-2013, 04:48 AM
Quote:
btw - for the mines TBR is also VERY helpful
thats one of the problem.

nearly nobody uses anything to clear mines (or sci powers - which are just as "useful" as tric mines), just pure dmg builds out there. the next nerf will be all those "noobish OP" pets just because of the same reason.
WHY had the escort to die?
It was easy as hell to disable those 4 tric mines and it was difficult to use them effectively.
The tric mines where the only mines which somebody had to take care.

i died thousands of times, but rarely to mines...

the problem with PvE: the design is simply ridiculous. a sphere chained to a sphere repairing a cube, 4times, 3 cubes.
4 generators repairing a big generator repairing a big gate. 2 times

with a logical setting, more like the new Hive, there wouldn't be any problems people hitting the main goal with one shot.

i don't think pvp is broken, but the tanky raw-dps builds are. but i WILL be broken if the nerf keeps going on. there will be no need for playerskill, just put the nose to target and hammer spacebar
Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 460
# 27
02-28-2013, 04:54 AM
It's not hard to survive an alpha strike, even alone. Meanwhile, getting oneshot by tricobalt mines was more difficult to defend against, especially if whoever launched those mines is carrying a tractor beam.

But really, it's not about PvP balance, it's about balance as a whole. If you can oneshot a boss level ship with a single volley of mines, THAT is broken. I'd love to see you, completely solo by yourself, do that in one, two, or even three superbuffed alpha strikes.

"oh but the optional!" Who cares about the optional, they're so easy to get anyways, you don't need a magical oneshot button to guarantee it.
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Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 896
# 28
02-28-2013, 04:59 AM
Could someone in this thread answer me this:

I am a science captain, science vessel.

In PvP, I wind up 1 vs 1 an escort. I catch said escort piling on the buffs, so I hit him with a subnuc. Cool, I might actually survive his attack...

However, how am I supposed to kill him through the super-high defense value, the rep and set heals that might proc, and his couple of self-heals?

Remember, without going lockbox, the best tactical setup I have is the RSV (Luna class), which gives me one lt. tactical ability, as I need to burn both ensigns on TT for the 66% uptime to operate my shield tanking abilities...

Meanwhile, what are the odds that his normal guns will still pop me in the 33%ish time that the TTs are cycling, as both my engineering slots are slotting EPtS? My only hull heals therefore are HEs and I'll be taking bleedthrough the entire time...
50: S'Leth/Eurthyr/S. Dareau/Ardrian/Krudge/Annlova Not: Jadja
Still at it. CBS "restrictions" fell by wayside with freebie Breen. Time to re-examine ENT and ToS at tier 5, repurpose the Connie into Sci and rebuild an Akira escort into the "NX". 6 "eras", spread evenly over all the classes...
Career Officer
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 136
# 29
02-28-2013, 05:13 AM
Quote:
It's not hard to survive an alpha strike, even alone. Meanwhile, getting oneshot by tricobalt mines was more difficult to defend against, especially if whoever launched those mines is carrying a tractor beam.
it should be that hard, all mines should be a threat. that's what mines are for.
tractor beam has several counters too, so that can't be a real problem.
it gets only a problem if you try to keep other powers up all the time or don't bring a counter at all.

Quote:
I am a science captain, science vessel.
yes, that's the problem. you don't have many sci powers which are a threat for anyone.
i heard some time ago sci-captains where dangerous
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,400
# 30
02-28-2013, 06:02 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by resoundingenvoy View Post
Ok, so tricobolt mines where doing damage so massive they had to be nerfed...
Yes, in PvE.

On STFs I was able to basically solo most of the mission. My team could literally park at the gate while I duo trico bombed everything into dust.

A typical Tac/Escort build is capable of DPS in the 7k to 10k area - depending on team comp and what they're doing on it.


When Trico-madness was around, I was doing 10k at the absolute lowest but typically my DPS was in the 12k to 30k area. (20k was my general average)


My record spikes were well over one million points of damage in the short space of 17s for 42k averaged DPS.


Quote:
Originally Posted by darramouss1 View Post
I'll bet you my spare JHAS that the gates didn't complain but the PvPers did...
The devs have the ability to mine data, to see how fast content is being completed.

And Borticus clearly stated several times that Trico+DPB+Crits was problematic in PvE due to how it trivialized content.



Now, people who are not very good at the game have an excuse to try and get better. Instead of relying on an overpowered mechanic to do all the work.

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