Career Officer
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 229
# 11
02-28-2013, 04:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by byzanathos View Post
do Escorts actually need to out damage Cruisers?

IMO they should do about the same DPS and the point of difference be maneuverability vs. tank

There does seem to be a discrepancy between Fed Cruisers and KDF battlecruisers

The KDF versions just seem so much better with the ability to use dual can's and the extra turn rate the ships have. You can get KDF cruisers with 11 base turn? and the best you can do fed side is 8? It's actually quite a big gap.

Hard to gauge how much of the problem is to do with beam energy usage, but it does seem like a real issue. It seems to me like beams vs. cannons is balanced fairly well in terms of damage vs arc but the extra energy drain on beams just makes cannons that much better.
I find it funny on some cruisers with crews in the thousands, have less tactically than a ship with less than a hundred.

And KDF cruisers are so much worse than Feds. Nothing even close to the adaptability of the Excelsior, Ambassador etc..

I think we only have one that's halfway decent. And Feds will have access to their Tier V shipyards waaaay before any KDF fleet does.

So yea, KDF cruisers turn faster, and do way less damage.
We are now in a gaming paradox created by Cryptic/PWE...

"You cannot win because you cannot get the rewards and

you cannot get the rewards because you cannot win."

Last edited by thebumble; 02-28-2013 at 04:05 PM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 940
# 12
02-28-2013, 04:04 PM
Soo...re-classify current Cruiser builds as something else and re-create Cruisers as a fourth starship type interpreted closer to the so-called canon?
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Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,934
# 13
02-28-2013, 04:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by thebumble View Post
Every escort should be like the Andorian ships. High DPS and little defense.

That would bring it more in line with how the game SHOULD be...

Escorts should have 0 tanking ability.
Mayby I'm confused, whats your definition of tanking ?

If your talking about getting on someone tail and staying there while unloading everything and maintaining your front shield till he dies, then I do that all the time in my shuttle against BoP's in the vault.
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Career Officer
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 233
# 14
02-28-2013, 05:05 PM
ok do this, instead of the old layouts

LT Cruiser 3 forward, 2 rear hardpoints
LTCMR 4 forward, 3 rear
CAPT 4 forward, 4 rear
RA/VA 6Forward, 5 year.

Now change beam array power drain or change cruisers to where they have 400 power total instead of 200, and allow weapons power to instead of maxing at 125, cruisers can max out at 225.
Commander
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 405
# 15
02-28-2013, 05:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by thebumble View Post
And KDF cruisers are so much worse than Feds. Nothing even close to the adaptability of the Excelsior, Ambassador etc..

I think we only have one that's halfway decent. And Feds will have access to their Tier V shipyards waaaay before any KDF fleet does.

So yea, KDF cruisers turn faster, and do way less damage.
Hahahahaha. Oh man that's funny.

Universla slots, much higher turn, most can use cannons.....

Higher turn rate effectively becomes higher damage. With Fed cruisers being either 6, 7, or 8 at best, we are stuck wiith beams. Anyone with a resist shield knows how little of a threat those are. Or we can get a single cannon/turret or all turret build, but since most cruisers can't reliably cycle CRF while having any other tac abilities, cruisers have been reduced to nothing. Protect the escorts....science support the escorts....I'm tired of the entire game being centered around escorts. Yes I did cave and get one, sure. I just hate having the Regent and the Excel in the mothball fleet because my fleet patrol escort with all human boffs can tank just as well. I spent almost a year trying to find a viable pvp fed cruiser build.

The only conclussion Ican come to is that Fed cruisers are a joke.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 2,825
# 16
02-28-2013, 06:52 PM
In "real" Star Trek cruisers weren't just supporters for other ships, it was quite the opposite. Not that i would want them to become OP, but i would love to seen them being more like escorts.
I think Cryptics decision to make every ship being able to heal itself and thus more independent was a good step to make STO a more Star Trek like game. Before that ships where too much trapped in their standard MMO roles, which was completely out of place for a Star trek game.

To continue this process, i think both Escorts and Cruisers should be much more alike, when it comes to Firepower and durability. The big difference should be the way they archieve that.
Escorts should get their defense by moving fast and buffing themselves a bit, Cruisers by healing and buffing themselves. They are already pretty close when it comes to durability, but i think Firepower is what especially Starfleet cruisers need.

When it comes to firepower i think the difference between Escorts and Cruiser should be how they deliver it.
Cruisers should get some kind of bonus for using Beam Weapons like less energy drain or something like that.
Additionally i think there should be a couple of additional low level engineering powers, like a more narrowed Fire at Will power maybe 120 or 180 degrees fireing arc to the ships side. So a cruiser could do some AOE damage without getting the attention of every NPC ship around.
I could also imagine something like a Beam Array Rapid fire power to fight single enemies.
All ships could maybe get an built in "combine all beam weapons to one shot" power, which would work like an on/off switch and would just be cosmetical. I always though that battles in STO look much to arcade like.
An other possibility could be to incease cruisers maximum power to a subsystem from 125 to 150 while increasing its total power about ~150.


The funny thing is, Cryptic made Klingon Cruisers much better than Starfleet Cruisers and Starfleet Escorts much better than Klingon escorts, while it should be the other way round IMO.

-> -> -> STO players unite and say NO to ARC <- <- <-
T6 Guardian Class design / A 25th century Ambassador refit

Last edited by yreodred; 02-28-2013 at 07:00 PM.
Ensign
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 17
# 17
03-01-2013, 03:10 AM
I think that cruisers have some problems to be competitive in the game, as they are supposed to be tanks by all means, with decent dps to catch aggro, and have some "unique" skill to catch even more aggro or lower allies aggro, as all games in history have for tanks.
The fact by now is that you can have a good dps cruiser with low survivability, or a medium-low dps cruiser with very high survivability, and with some builds as a romulan plasma based build in a tac toon, you can have your dps significantly increased by losing small survivability (for not being an engineer).
In my case i have this type of build on my fleet star cruiser, and i am very pleased of it, because i can catch aggro for a some time, do decent damage holding for so long on STF's, only dying 1 time every 10 STF's aprox., and providing some support to escorts on my team also.
What is the problem then? This strategy wipes out on any other energy type, and for pvp (i'm not interested in the boring pvp this game has by now, but is a fact) the damage output is reduced considerably as many people have more resistance to plasma than any other energy type, and if you replace the damage lose with other ways, then the cruiser loses its main utility: tanking (= holding damage and attention from multiple enemies without problems allowing the other teammates to freely attack the enemy (dps) or having you alive (healers)).

So, in conclusion, i think the only thing cruisers need is 1 or 2 changes to make them different, and as a tank lover and expert on every game i play, in my point of view this can be made by 2 ways:
1- increasing maximum cruiser energy to 300, what seems acceptable considering the big cores they have. This also needs small modifications of the maximum energy per system, of course, but nothing very difficult to make and understand. Increasing also the maximum weapon slots on 1 per side would also allow even better performance and adaptation to the new maximum energy output, but not completely necessary.
2- Modifying (reducing) the energy drain of beam arrays and increasing maximum weapon slots in 2 in front and 1 rear. On this case i think both parts go together to properly do the job. The only bad thing this have is making the energy reduction in a way escorts cannot benefit from it, or we will be again at the beginning with different numbers and weapons.

Both 2 ways should be fair to make cruisers good tanks, and if the teaming for group missions is also designed by roles, we should see a very different STO much more attractive and varied, because by now, as anyone knows, escorts (with some tanking capabilities some of them) are ruling the game, making it boring and out of its essence.

Have a good day
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 4,050
# 18
03-01-2013, 03:47 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cha0s1428 View Post
Hahahahaha. Oh man that's funny.

Universla slots, much higher turn, most can use cannons.....

Higher turn rate effectively becomes higher damage. With Fed cruisers being either 6, 7, or 8 at best, we are stuck wiith beams. Anyone with a resist shield knows how little of a threat those are. Or we can get a single cannon/turret or all turret build, but since most cruisers can't reliably cycle CRF while having any other tac abilities, cruisers have been reduced to nothing. Protect the escorts....science support the escorts....I'm tired of the entire game being centered around escorts. Yes I did cave and get one, sure. I just hate having the Regent and the Excel in the mothball fleet because my fleet patrol escort with all human boffs can tank just as well. I spent almost a year trying to find a viable pvp fed cruiser build.

The only conclussion Ican come to is that Fed cruisers are a joke.
And which Klingon cruisers with universal slots would that be?
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,226
# 19
03-01-2013, 03:51 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by thratch1 View Post
They should redo the way aggro works in this game so escorts aren't always tanking, first.

Cruisers just don't have the tools they need to manage aggro. Escorts need to be able to take a beating, or Escort pilots will either stop fighting as hard, or will be constantly staring at 30- and 60-second respawn timers (in both cases, hampering the progress of groups).
This is something I noted awhile back.

Overall, I think what's needed is:

Escorts need to be far less tank-y.

Cruisers need to be more tanky. (And the turnrate is still painful. As in my first gets cramps turning them.)

Aggro needs to make sense. Right now, it doesn't.

This probably needs to be accomplished in a way that doesn't wind up making escorts non-viable in solo content, which is the risk with these changes.
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 536
# 20 Cruiser type DPS
03-01-2013, 04:24 AM
The need is to give Cruisers their own version of DPS. The obvious solution is to have beam weapons stack DPS when multiple beams strike the target and maintain DPS over a greater distance than Escorts.

Escorts will retain their DPS advantage with higher damage in a shorter amount of time, but the gap would shrink so that DPS is not the only key to victory, since Cruisers would also have tank ability (which probably needs boosting for Cruisers)

Science ship would also get a similar advantage from beams and also have the sci disruption/AoE capabilities to boost damage effect.

Bottom line, Star Trek is a combination of ships so they all need to be part of the game (Cruisers, Science Frigate, and Escorts); STO just need to bring back the balance, especially before trying to revamp PvP.
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