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Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 986
# 31
03-01-2013, 08:56 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by tobiasosir View Post

I love the idea of T1 PvP play though. Maybe I'll have to approach my fleet about that, though I wouldn't buy a Zen store ship just for that. I was actually thinking this morning about a shuttle only queue (can't play the Vault shuttle event yet), but that's another thread entirely.
We've done shuttles too, that's nutty. We've also done 5-10 shuttles vs. one guy in his T5 ship. Actually managed to bring down an Armitage 3 times with 6 shuttles before he racked up 15 kills, lol.

As for the main derailment of this thread, Cryptic has already put explanation for that into the game. Specifically, if you look at the NX replica (not, it's specifically a replica), it says tech has advanced enough that they can basically make the ship however they want. It's a similar excuse as used in Galaxy Express 999 for why anybody could or would make interstellar spacecraft that look like old time steam trains.

Is it a contrivance just to allow people to play their favorite ship regardless of the setting? Yes, absolutely. We aren't going to be able to have Star Trek Enterprise: Online, Star Trek TOS: Online, Star Trek TNG: Online and Star Trek 2409 Online. This one game has to satisfy everybody. It's just a video game, and its status as soft canon is highly debatable, so who cares. I doubt the authors of the Pocket novels will start having technologically modern Excelsiors showing up in post-Nemesis relaunch stuff just because STO did it. So yes, it's a contrivance, yes it doesn't make sense in universe if you think about it, but just roll with it. From a gameplay POV it doesn't matter.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 890
# 32
03-01-2013, 09:01 AM
For those who say old can't be made new again...I present the DC-3.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=yAHcAbxuu00
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Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 980
# 33
03-01-2013, 09:14 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by stirling191 View Post
Size and tier are not at all related variables. And the notion that you can magically stuff the capabilities of one ship into another ship of completely different dimensions is again, ludicrous. If it were true, why bother creating new designs at all?
This is the very heart of the matter, tiny warp nacelles of the bug can go warp ten. Their tiny hulls are covered in 3,000 plus HP armor. Tiny Defiant weapon emitters are in the second most powerful category of the game (only recently dethroned), tiny shield generators on the Nova are science ship grade. You could fill the rest of a connie with tribbles and have it be just as powerful. This is not what I am advocating, I am not asking for science grade shields or DHC, I am just saying comparable equipment could fit within a Connie. You are implying there is some mystical connection between the outer hull of a ship and it's inner functions, that just isn't true anymore in STO. A tiny warp core no more than few decks tall can power all of those things in game.

You are saying that size is irrelevant, but shape is not, I want you to think about that for a bit. Think about how the bigger ships have more hp and less turning, and know that size is definitely a factor in the discussion.

Quote:
If it were true, why bother creating new designs at all?
There was a whole fleet of star ships around before this became possible in STO. It is still the transition phase, plus, you need to take into account the civillian/resources element. Some places will have an easier time making certain parts, in certain ways. All the different species of the federation will gravitate towards and be better at optimizing different elements of the Star Trek design ethic. The same ideas of aesthetic appreciation in this conversation carry over into real life, some designs will make better recruiting tools, museum pieces, or historically significant morale boosters.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stirling191 View Post
1) The U.S.S. Constitution is still in active service with the US Navy. She's still seaworthy. Should we replace our entire fleet with ships based on her design because she's been in service for nearly two and a half centuries?

2) You're absolutely right about the highlighted portion. That role however, does not equate to a justification for using an incredibly outdated design when modern, superior, designs exist.
1) I never suggested replacing the whole fleet with Connies, it can fill the useful role of light cruiser for those who want it.

2) Again, outward looks mean nothing for STO, you can trade out warp nacelles, saucers, warp cores, and weapons pods while still operating with the same efficiency, as shown by the games customization options.
The Somraw, K'tinga, D'Kyr, D7, Kumari, Xindi carrier, Xindi escort, and the T'Varo are all older than the Constitution Refit and yet they are tier 5. The rule needs to change.
Ensign
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 29
# 34
03-01-2013, 09:15 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by shockwave85 View Post
We've done shuttles too, that's nutty. We've also done 5-10 shuttles vs. one guy in his T5 ship. Actually managed to bring down an Armitage 3 times with 6 shuttles before he racked up 15 kills, lol.
This would be ridiculously fun. I'm imagining getting a fleet of 15-20 shuttles and trying to take down something ludicrous like a D'deridex warbird. We'd get slaughtered, but damn would it be a blast.

Same with the old Connie. If it's not a viable use for end game play, it would be fun to bring her out for low level mission, maybe Foundry stuff, if not fleet actions. It would be great to play the Doomsday Machine episode in one, but again, I'm not going to spend the money for something frivolous like that.

Side note: never looked at the Exeter, I'll have to check it out.
(Edit) NM, I missed that the Fleet Exeter was a suggestion, not an actual ship you could get.

Last edited by tobiasosir; 03-01-2013 at 09:19 AM.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 174
# 35
03-01-2013, 09:27 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by skyranger1414 View Post
I think a Fleet Exeter, at T5 would satisfy everyone. I say T5 because it would give lip service to keeeping them a rare and valuable prize while in reality allowing easy access to anyone that wanted them.

As far as the original connie goes... I would propose ship costumes for all modern ships, but using the TOS "look". More hard geometric shapes, all white, and with actual dishes as deflectors.
I'll be quite honest here: While I would love to see and use a Connie-style Cruiser in the T5 Range. I Would be against it being a Fleet Ship!

I would rather see a Connie that has less Hull than any other T5 Cruiser, but more than most of the Escorts. I would also like to see it as a C-Store, Account Unlocked available ship in the $20-25 range. Oh, wait... I already tried starting a thread about something like that. And lookie here, this thread is going in a similar direction as that one. Wow, who knew...

Bottom line, for me, is this: I would like to have reasonable access and opportunity to use a proper Connie-Styled Ship in Upper Tier Content. I feel that there are a good number of players who would like that as well.

Thank you for the time...
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Scrap current Lock Box & Lobi system for something more reasonable
Expand Dil and Fleet Marks to regular story content
Lieutenant
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 44
# 36
03-01-2013, 09:28 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by stirling191 View Post
Which are equally as ridiculous, especially given the current in-game situation where older ships are outperforming newer ones (see Galaxy vs. Excel/Ambassador). But Cryptic is too cheap, or too lazy, to actually create new Klingon ships to fill the vacuum, which makes the D7/B'Rel inclusion a smidge more tolerable.

See above for B'Rel, Excelsior and D7. In addition, the Kumari is not the 22nd century design. The Cheyenne and Galaxy are mid/late 24th century designs. A few decades is a far cry from pushing two hundred years.
The point is, and what you already admit, is that the ship's already sailed. It sailed when we could get a 120 year old Excelsior as a Tier 5. Heck, it sailed when Starfleet trucked out 80 year old Excels and Mirandas at Wolf 359. The only thing holding back a Tier 5 Constitution / Exeter is CBS's notion on keeping 1701 and 1701-A beholden to nostalgia or whatever, nevermind that every other 1701 from B to F and a good deal of 1701's nemesii are available at Tier 5.
Lieutenant
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 44
# 37
03-01-2013, 09:31 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cidstorm View Post
This is the very heart of the matter, tiny warp nacelles of the bug can go warp ten. Their tiny hulls are covered in 3,000 plus HP armor. Tiny Defiant weapon emitters are in the second most powerful category of the game (only recently dethroned), tiny shield generators on the Nova are science ship grade. You could fill the rest of a connie with tribbles and have it be just as powerful. This is not what I am advocating, I am not asking for science grade shields or DHC, I am just saying comparable equipment could fit within a Connie. You are implying there is some mystical connection between the outer hull of a ship and it's inner functions, that just isn't true anymore in STO. A tiny warp core no more than few decks tall can power all of those things in game.
I was going to mention in one of the UP cruiser threads, but you gave me a good segue: You can stick a Defiant Refit in the hangar of an Odyssey, yet the former has three-quarter the hit points of the latter. Today I learned there's no square-cube law in the 25th century.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 832
# 38
03-01-2013, 09:34 AM
Ok... I think all "we" (us Connie lovers) really want to do is to be able go into combat once in a while and not be incinerated by the ion trails of the other ships impulse engines.

Ideas of having a Tier V Connie running around would be wrong in so many different ways, as much as I hate to admit it.

Perhaps a consumable hull device (like Prototype Ablative Jevonite Hardpoints) that will give +20K hull strength, only to Tier I and II ships, for 60 minutes would help people get their "Connie fix" and not go against canon. Something that is purchasable with Dilithium or EC.
Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 3,465
# 39
03-01-2013, 09:45 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by spyralpegacyon View Post
The point is, and what you already admit, is that the ship's already sailed. It sailed when we could get a 120 year old Excelsior as a Tier 5. Heck, it sailed when Starfleet trucked out 80 year old Excels and Mirandas at Wolf 359. The only thing holding back a Tier 5 Constitution / Exeter is CBS's notion on keeping 1701 and 1701-A beholden to nostalgia or whatever, nevermind that every other 1701 from B to F and a good deal of 1701's nemesii are available at Tier 5.
I've argued against the T5 Excelsior. I argued against the T5 Ambassador. And you better believe I'm going to continue arguing against a T5 Connie.

Why?

Because it just doesn't make sense.

Also, using Wolf 359, where the only ship to survive was a Cheyenne class, as justification for a Connie to be made on par with ships substantially more advanced than a Cheyenne, doesn't really help your case.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cidstorm View Post
This is the very heart of the matter, tiny warp nacelles of the bug can go warp ten. Their tiny hulls are covered in 3,000 plus HP armor. Tiny Defiant weapon emitters are in the second most powerful category of the game (only recently dethroned), tiny shield generators on the Nova are science ship grade. You could fill the rest of a connie with tribbles and have it be just as powerful. This is not what I am advocating, I am not asking for science grade shields or DHC, I am just saying comparable equipment could fit within a Connie. You are implying there is some mystical connection between the outer hull of a ship and it's inner functions, that just isn't true anymore in STO. A tiny warp core no more than few decks tall can power all of those things in game.

Again, we're back to "if size and shape doesn't matter, why isn't Starfleet nothing but NX class ships shooting death star beams"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by cidstorm View Post
You are saying that size is irrelevant, but shape is not, I want you to think about that for a bit. Think about how the bigger ships have more hp and less turning, and know that size is definitely a factor in the discussion.
So it's either"we can fit anything into anything, unless it's a funny shape", or "bigger ships have different stats than smaller ships". If the former, that makes zero sense. If the latter, you're flat out admitting that you can't magically stuff an unlimited amount of equipment and capability into any size ship.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cidstorm View Post
There was a whole fleet of star ships around before this became possible in STO. It is still the transition phase, plus, you need to take into account the civillian/resources element. Some places will have an easier time making certain parts, in certain ways. All the different species of the federation will gravitate towards and be better at optimizing different elements of the Star Trek design ethic. The same ideas of aesthetic appreciation in this conversation carry over into real life, some designs will make better recruiting tools, museum pieces, or historically significant morale boosters.
You're arguing that, in the era where macro scale replication is not only possibly but the norm, it's more resource friendly to construct entirely new ships than it is to replace the interior components of already existing vessels? I'd like to hear the logic behind that...

Quote:
Originally Posted by cidstorm View Post
1) I never suggested replacing the whole fleet with Connies, it can fill the useful role of light cruiser for those who want it.

2) Again, outward looks mean nothing for STO, you can trade out warp nacelles, saucers, warp cores, and weapons pods while still operating with the same efficiency, as shown by the games customization options.
1) So you're now saying that you can't put the capabilities of any ship inside any hull?

2) Following that logic, why don't you argue for shuttles to have the same stats of a Fleet Defiant? Since apparently appearance doesn't matter...
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 940
# 40
03-01-2013, 10:14 AM
A game set in the future, and people are crying that they cant use a ship from a few centuries ago..

STOP LIVING IN THE PAST-FUTURE!
Your Heavy Graviton Beam deals 26470 (10583) Kinetic Damage(Critical) to Assimilated Carrier.
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