Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,176
# 1651
03-01-2013, 04:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by naevius View Post
Actually, rainbow builds do about two thirds to half the damage a single energy type build would do, depending on how many tac consoles your ship has.
False.

Weapon damage is calculated thusly

Base +
Rarity Mod (2.5% per)
Mark Mod (10% per)
Skill Mod (99% total)

So for a beam array at base 100 damage let us make it mark 12 ultra rare maxed skills we have this:

100+10+120+99 = 329 before consoles. A purple Mk 12 specific console adds 30 to that number per, a generic adds 20.

So your looking at a 10 damage difference per console, lets go 5 console ship for kicks.

479 vs 409 for your base damage which is then modified by weapon power and all other multiplicative things.

So you see, even on a 5 console ship it is more like a 15% difference in the end. Hardly as big of a deal as many seem to think.
STO has a diverse group of players with a wide range of expectations and playstyles. To that end the STO team should endeavor to create a variety of content with a diverse set of difficulty levels and challenges. Cake for everyone!
Lieutenant
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 84
# 1652
03-01-2013, 05:14 PM
Interesting analysis, but are you sure about that order, I would expect it to be more like:

(base + rarity + mark) * (1+console mod) * (power value) * (active bonuses)

not sure where skill is in that equation, of course power value and active bonuses are a constant for this but...

Perhaps someone could test this by tooltip checks same: weapon power, no active bonuses
post results with different console mod and different mark/rarity:

EG: MK X white, no console
MK X white, 1 console
MK XI white, no console
... MK XI Green ....
MK XI Blue

or post a link to similar testing, or a dev post explaining the formula etc.

I'd like to see some proven raw maths rather than just: it works like this.

tl;dr Source on that formula please
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,176
# 1653
03-01-2013, 07:51 PM
Search pvp forums for the thread it is likely extremely buried but that is how it works. If you choose not to believe me or test it for yourself I care not.

It will take seconds to verify. Equip Mk 1 weapon and Mk 10 weapon then see how much flat DPV the console adds. It will be the same exact flat number at 50 wpn power.
STO has a diverse group of players with a wide range of expectations and playstyles. To that end the STO team should endeavor to create a variety of content with a diverse set of difficulty levels and challenges. Cake for everyone!

Last edited by bareel; 03-01-2013 at 07:53 PM.
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 247
# 1654 numbers shnumbers
03-01-2013, 08:29 PM
Having to put up with Rainbow/Technicolor boats pretty much daily in assorted STF's, I would have to say Numbers Shnumbers. First hand views say Rainbow/Technicolor weapons are pathetically weak regardless of the math. Sure they can be beefed up a little in the hands of someone who really knows how to build a ship but they still can't out do the single weapons type boats.

If you insist on running rainbows, good luck. You'll need it.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,176
# 1655
03-01-2013, 08:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jake81499 View Post
Having to put up with Rainbow/Technicolor boats pretty much daily in assorted STF's, I would have to say Numbers Shnumbers. First hand views say Rainbow/Technicolor weapons are pathetically weak regardless of the math. Sure they can be beefed up a little in the hands of someone who really knows how to build a ship but they still can't out do the single weapons type boats.

If you insist on running rainbows, good luck. You'll need it.
That's like saying 4 tac console escorts can't out do the 5 tac console ones.

Look I'm not saying they are good or disputing that morons mostly fly them. I'm just saying it gets harped on far too heavily compared to other things that are mathematically similar in their under performance.
STO has a diverse group of players with a wide range of expectations and playstyles. To that end the STO team should endeavor to create a variety of content with a diverse set of difficulty levels and challenges. Cake for everyone!
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 247
# 1656 Daja vu
03-01-2013, 08:59 PM
Why me I say? Why me?

There I was.

Today, CSN.

I pug in and say 'hi'.

One response.

I'm trying hard to get a XII shield so I'm doing as many pugs STF missions as I can. I just need the shield to complete a set, no other reason.

I fly off to the right, nobody follows.

I start on the nodes.

No help.

All four of the other ships are at the Kang.

I start on the cube.

Optional fails.

I say (again), 'your kidding right? What we got at the Kang a bunch of rainbow boats?'

I finish the cube, still no help.

I fly by the Kang while heading to the center cube.

Sure enough, FOUR Rainbow/Technicolor boats at the Kang.

Oh goody.

I finish cube 2 and fly to the Kang.

It's at 5% so I send it a heal and finish off the spawn.

I hurry over the cube 3 and finish it off real quick with no help.

Next I rush back to the Kang and hail it while passing by three spawn.

I just set and watch.

About two minutes later I get bored and fly back and kill the spawn.

The carrier comes up.

Two of the Rainbow/Technicolor boats were infatuated with the BOPs and the other two were just too weak to be of much help.

The carrier finally dies.

I type, 'lose the rainbow weapons'

Someone say, 'FU'

Ignorance is bliss.
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 247
# 1657
03-01-2013, 09:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bareel View Post
That's like saying 4 tac console escorts can't out do the 5 tac console ones.

Look I'm not saying they are good or disputing that morons mostly fly them. I'm just saying it gets harped on far too heavily compared to other things that are mathematically similar in their under performance.
Again, Good Luck.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,176
# 1658
03-01-2013, 09:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jake81499 View Post
I type, 'lose the rainbow weapons'

Someone say, 'FU'

Ignorance is bliss.
Yes it really is and that is my point.

They had fail builds. Even if they were using all the same type of weapon they still would have put out pathetically bad damage.

I don't see people flipping out over 'OMG he was in a steamrunner instead of a defiant NOOB needs a 5th tac console' or 'OMG he wasn't in an escort/warship but in an oddessy/assault cruiser/DSSV' even though those are the same level of difference in damage output, many times more so.

But hey if someone wants to fly a cruiser I don't care, nor do I care if it uses rainbow beams, for two simple reasons. First, unless I'm on an under developed alt I will simply carry them. Secondly crap builds are crap no matter the ship or weapon types and attacking someone on their preference be it techno beams or cruiser hull will do nothing to improve their build.

Perhaps informing them hey if you run at max weapon power and then over-cap that with an emergency power to weapons and rotate that with emergency power to shields in your rainbow boat they will both deal significantly more damage and have greater survivability would work better.
STO has a diverse group of players with a wide range of expectations and playstyles. To that end the STO team should endeavor to create a variety of content with a diverse set of difficulty levels and challenges. Cake for everyone!
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,063
# 1659
03-02-2013, 02:41 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jake81499 View Post
First hand views say Rainbow/Technicolor weapons are pathetically weak regardless of the math.
rainbow weapons are exactly the same as normal weapons... thats the point, they are normal weapons, just not a single type

Quote:
Originally Posted by jake81499 View Post
Sure they can be beefed up a little in the hands of someone who really knows how to build a ship but they still can't out do the single weapons type boats.

If you insist on running rainbows, good luck. You'll need it.
noone disputed that you can outdo single weap type boats. the point was, that the difference between them is lower than most people think (pls check bareel's post about this), and there is no reason why rainbow builds should deal 1,3k dps in an stf, while they could easily pull 3k (and if they applied themselves the same should be capable of 6k, and even that would not be the top), if it wasnt for the captains, who dont listen to nothing.

also to stop my off streak, here is a frustrating one:
so I wanted to test my new build, so I load up an ISE pug. what we end up with, is one guy missing the whole game, and one guy afk or something (he pulled 300 dps, so I dunno what happened there, but he was flying around the end battle, so he might have been just afraid to pull aggro).
one guy was dealing "good" (5k) dps, and the other guy was meh (3k). this is not such a problem, but in both instances someone blew generators early, so I had to go out of my way to grav well probes. after the cube popped, noone aggroed it, but someone was yelling at us why we are attacking the gate, which resulted in me attacking the gate, one guy on the cube, one guy indecisive and one guy who dealt 300 dps somewhere out there beneath the pale moonlight.
fortunately the two guys managed to pull the cube near to the gate, so now it could attack me too, so I had to play hide n seek with the gate and the cube too.

in the end we did finish within the optional (it dont have no meaning at this point tho, if it takes 13 mins to finish an stf it aint a good game, esp not ise), but boy I was frustrated having to carry them ppl, while I only wanted to test a frakking build
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 247
# 1660 Good luck with that
03-02-2013, 08:26 AM
You can run all the Rainbow/Technicolor weapons you want. I don't really care. You can try all day long to convence me and the others who have posted their experiances here that Rainbow/Technicolor weapons are as good as normal weapons. But I've yet to see one in action that could out gun a normal boat regardless of the math. And I've done THOUSANDS of STF's. So good luck with your efforts.

Once again....

There I was...

Today, CSN.

I PUG in and say 'HI' as usual.

Three others say 'HI'

I fly right, a Klink flys left and three fly off to the Kang.

I'm working on nodes at cube #1 and here comes a Rainbow/Technicolor boat.

He starts on a node by himself.

I finish off four nodes before he kills the one.

I buzz over and kill his too.

Off to Cube 2.

The Technicolor/Rainbow guy follows.

He starts on a node and I start on a different node.

I finish three before he kills his.

I finish his and work with him on the rest.

Off to cube three.

The Klink has finished all the nodes and is working on the Cube.

Cube dies.

Carrier dies...

All is well.

Just another Technicolor/Rainbow Failboat story.

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