Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 128
# 21
03-02-2013, 03:07 AM
Yeah, I enjoyed the SFB board game too.

Forcing a new player have to continue to have to play a fed toon first and haviong KDF play is not acceptable. It is one of the main reason there are 4 fed players for every KDF player.

Wake up. The Feds are more popular, and they should be. It's been their story for the last 50 years. Star Trek is one of the most famous IPs of our century. Nobody who plays STO doesn't know what Klingons are. "Players in MMO's stay with the faction they started with" is a specious argument that suggests the individual STO player has no knowledge of Trek. If a player wants to play a Klingon - they'll play a Klingon. Providing Level 1 KDF access isn't going to change that.
Counting accounts is a disingenous game. Yes, you can argue that some of the Fed accounts wouldn't exist because there would be pure Klingon players with zero interest in the Feds, thereby shrinking the ratio, but that's a very small number. Probably about equivalent to the number of players who've deleted their Fed toons because they have zero interest in playing them. Furthermore, you're suggesting Cryptic is looking at accounts without the ability to count whether or not they're actually active.

The long-term persistent PvP universe is a great idea. But neither KDF'ers nor Feddies, are gonna participate at Level 1, or even L20. They're gonna gear up to L50 and then join in the fight. The game is too mature to do otherwise. And again - if a player wants to play a Klingon, they will play a Klingon. Or a Romulan, or a Cardassian, or whatever else is introduced before they get around to balancing the classes, skills, ships, and PvP, and then finally introduce persistent PvP.

That said, DStahl has repeatedly committed to wanting to do L1-50 KDF. I think you can provide a complete faction experience without those early levels by putting the missions at late to end game instead. I just personally don't see the need for 1-20, and those are my reasons.

Last edited by starsvoid; 03-02-2013 at 03:10 AM.
Survivor of Romulus
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 5,015
# 22
03-02-2013, 04:39 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by zionlyth View Post
That's the problem. According to Cyrptic, there simply is not enough interest in KDF to warrant that. You and some of the others may say you`ll support the game with your wallets if they release KDF content, but when they do (at least as far as c-store ships go) they get penuts in return for it. In addition the KDF side is like 1/25 of the fed side. If they do KDF only content it`ll get unused by the VAST majority of the playerbase...
Let me try to put this in a different perspective.
Let's say that the Andorian Kumari will be the last Z-Store ship released to the Fed. untill March next year.
Let's say that starting from now, for at least a year, the whole STO content would be Klingon and Romulan related.
Let's say that the next FEs will be KDF vs. RSE war, and the Fed. players will get a digest of it having your first officer telling you he/she strives for honor and glory. And curses a lot.

How much money do you think they'll make from your average Fed. player after a year like that??

And have in mind, I'm excluding the possibility of locking Fed. gameplay so you have to level a Klingon first and I'm not considering - let's say taking away most of the costumes availible to Fed. in Z-Store atm. But, that's what KDF has now.

So, how much money do you think your average Fed. would spend on STO under those circumistances??

Quote:
Originally Posted by starsvoid View Post

Wake up. The Feds are more popular, and they should be. It's been their story for the last 50 years. Star Trek is one of the most famous IPs of our century. Nobody who plays STO doesn't know what Klingons are. "Players in MMO's stay with the faction they started with" is a specious argument that suggests the individual STO player has no knowledge of Trek. If a player wants to play a Klingon - they'll play a Klingon. Providing Level 1 KDF access isn't going to change that.
Counting accounts is a disingenous game. Yes, you can argue that some of the Fed accounts wouldn't exist because there would be pure Klingon players with zero interest in the Feds, thereby shrinking the ratio, but that's a very small number. Probably about equivalent to the number of players who've deleted their Fed toons because they have zero interest in playing them. Furthermore, you're suggesting Cryptic is looking at accounts without the ability to count whether or not they're actually active.
When you people say that the Feds. are more popular, do you stop to consider the reasons?
This is not a Star Trek show, this is a Star Trek MMORPG.

Yes, the Federation has a vastly greater fanbase from the shows.
However, the people who play an MMO are more diverse than this simple example.

- There are Star Trek fans that never play games, so they might be Fed. fans, but will never play STO. I have a bunch of friends that love ST, but don't like playing MMOs.
- There are Star Trek fans in STO that like the Fed. but would rather play KDF due to the nature of the game. They don't feel right blowing everything up as a Fed.
- There are Star Trek fans that are Klingon fans, but don't want to play KDF or STO because of the current state of KDF. Many have said that due to the Fed. digest it lacks the Klingon feel to them. Some that play actually go even far enough not to play NR content because for them is completely contradictory to the faction they chose to play.
- Then there is your average MMO player, that wants to play a new game and knows nothing about ST. He/she ain't a ST fan. He/she is looking for a new fun game. At the current state of content, which faction do you think a player like this will be more inclined to join? The cool faction that you start with, that has tons of ships/uniforms/missions etc., that gets cool new shiny toys and updates on regular basis, or the poor gimped faction that gets one ship and one mission in a year??
And have in mind, if the game is to grow it needs this average player. The core ST fans will be here to keep it afloat, but if STO is to grow it has to appeal to people that play MMOs, regardless of them being actual Star Trek fans or not.
Also have in mind that many of these people play the "bad boys" factions in MMOs. They have a certain appeal to people because it gives the opportunity to behave like badasses and do things that they wouldn't in real life.
So, when they come to STO, wanting to play as a Klingon warrior or let's say a Nausicaan pirate, and when they face that they have to deal with 50% less content, 50% less options to customize your char. and 50% less ships in game, will they stay in STO?

People come on the forums posting stuff like - 'Klingons utilize their old designs and are not fond of designing new ships like the Feds.'.
Well, last time I checked, the KFD players of STO were all.....Human! So unless NASA sends a space-shuttle to Qo'noS to bring Klingon players to play STO, the people that play KDF like new shiny toys, new cool ships and more uniform customization options as much as the next person.

I'm not going to go in details of why I don't consider single faction MMOs appealing for me. I'm just going to say that with the potential of this IP, if STO turns into a single faction game would be very dissapointing and it would be an epic underachievment.

It is a vicious circle. Not being able to start as a KDF from the start reduces the amount of potential KDF players. The smaller number of KDF players reduces the number of purchases of KDF items. The small number of KDF purchases makes low revenue for Cryptic and has taken a toll of developing new KDF content as a consequence. Less Klingon content means less players interested to play KDF.
This is why we need low level missions and KDF start from level 1.
Someone has to break this circle and that's the devs' job, certainly not mine.

So, yeah, wake up! This is not TNG, it's a Trek based MMORPG.
Show your support for the Revamped Galaxy Class Exploration Cruiser here!

Last edited by shpoks; 03-02-2013 at 04:46 AM.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 128
# 23
03-02-2013, 06:06 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by shpoks View Post
It is a vicious circle. Not being able to start as a KDF from the start reduces the amount of potential KDF players. The smaller number of KDF players reduces the number of purchases of KDF items. The small number of KDF purchases makes low revenue for Cryptic and has taken a toll of developing new KDF content as a consequence. Less Klingon content means less players interested to play KDF.
This is why we need low level missions and KDF start from level 1.
Someone has to break this circle and that's the devs' job, certainly not mine.
I agree with your sentiments completely except for the bolded. I don't see how they are in any way contingent upon stopping enforcement of levels 1-20 as Starfleet only.

Nonetheless, I hope I am wrong, and when DStahl finally follows through on his commitment of L1-50 KDF, your ludicrously postulated millions of players who are prevented by the lack of it from playing KDF suddenly appear... give it a month? If that happens, send me a mail in game, starsrift@ (forumhandle), and I'll buy you one cstore ship of your choice.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,764
# 24
03-02-2013, 06:11 AM
I'm sure they will take something away once they fix the KDF... And that would mean more PVP wrapper nerfs and something to kill off Marauding as with the KDF being complete there'd be no need for such 'high' rewards...

I pray that I am wrong, but ever since I realized this, I've been scared.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lt. Comm. Pion
What should I wish upon the endless universe;
To be able to smile and forgive everything;
That's right, if we light up the dream in our hearts without averting our eyes;
We should be able to walk whatever tomorrow comes...

I am V. Adm. Kha Yuung, and I approve of this message.
Lieutenant
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 35
# 25
03-02-2013, 01:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldkhemaraa View Post
Nothing BS about wanting to attract new players with a complete faction experience my man.

You might think oh something special for end game... why? Thats is going to happen anyway. Its in fact what we've been getting for the last year and a half. The addition of low level KDF content has absolutly NOTHING to do with the players allready here. They'll be more FE's, and more STF's will be added. Additonal rep system would eventually come in, and at some point a big rebuild of the whole PvP experience. That is ALL endgame content.

Fact is, if we go by what you say there is utterly no reason to even bother with any additional specific KDF content.

Well sir, that is NOT ACCEPTABLE. As a faction we need fresh new players, new blood, and so does the game. They will need to be indoctrinated and educated on being a part of the KDF faction. THATS is what that low level content is for. Give them story, and set the tone for thier experience.

You may not need it or want it, and I surely don't need it. I was playing Klingon better then 2 decades and then some before anyone ever considered a trek MMO.. Back when the IBM PC with the DOS operating system was the newest thing in consumer electronics, and the internet for the public didn't even exist yet. Just ARPNET and you better have access to a university. I did board games and minitures then. I've been with STO since before launch .

Forcing a new player have to continue to have to play a fed toon first and haviong KDF play is not acceptable. It is one of the main reason there are 4 fed players for every KDF player. I'm surprised there are as many KDF player as there is in some ways. I want to see persistant territorial PvP in the future and if we dont get this upgrade to a full faction in this game we can expect to see that ratio change for the worse as time goes on. Constantly fighting with ones back entirly to the wall is tiring. I've done it in an MMO and it doesn't take long before it get un fun.

PWI, the owner of cryptic is an asian company with a LOT of experience running PvP MMO play. If your not terribly familiar with asian MMO style faction based PvP be aware that it tends to strongly reward victory. Cryptic has experience with PvP play but IT IS ALL ARENA BASED! There is a tremendous difference between arena play and a persistant territorial WAR. Let me add that there are only a bare handfull of MMO's that actually do try to simulate war style play. EVE online is one of them, but due to thegames overall structure it tends to be self regulating, especially in thier sandbox style play, but be aware that in Eve, winning is very very lucrative... loosing is simply expensive and time consuming.

Hopefully you now know more then when you first posted. There is a much bigger picture then just the individual player here. There are long term goals for play in STO that were set years ago at this point which we are no closer to right now then when the game launched 3 years ago. Getting that starting content done for this faction is an important part of meeting those goals. The studio has the opportunity to move the game much closer to the achiving of those goals IF it fleshes out the KDF faction. There are no guarentee's, but the one thing you take as a given is without the additon and fleshing out of the KDF faction experience that chance of meeting those goals is so close to zip at to make in not even worth while to try.

I'm not going to let you sir step in here with what I consider an utterly selfish and narrow minded vision of what STO can be. I've spent 'nuff money on this game to be invested in it and I just will not let you do that without a hell of a fight. Players in MMO's tend to stay with the faction they start with.

SO drop that crap and get on the barge son. If we are ever going to have a persistant PvP WAR with the federation we are going to need more players then we have now, and the only way to get them is to have them START as KDF, and get all of thier traiing in how to play the game in faction. And frankly, if you don't get it, your in the wrong faction, and quite possibly playing the wrong MMO.

Khemaraa Iron Hand
Klingon Black Fleet
There is really no need to get so defensive about this conversation. Firstly I do agree that KDF need to have lvls 1-25 done, and that players from the getgo should be able to chose to play either faction.

Where I disagree with a lot of people is that they are asking for KDF only endgame content. Cryptic moved away from this a while ago and made all new content available to both factions, and I think this is a step in the right direction. If you limit the content to one of the other faction you are only (at best) reaching 50% of your playerbase with it.

My comments about KDF Cstore ships are only paraphrasing what Cryptic said. KDF Cstore ships don't sell well. And although I would love more KDF ships as well I can see why they arent jumping the gun and making as many as they do for FEDs. Is it fair? no... Do I understand their decision... Yes.

And before you judge me as a Federation fanboy, please note that my first character to reach max level was a KDF captain. I leveled him back at launch when KDF had no content other then a few enemy alerts are PVP. I own 10 Cstore only kdf ships, and I believe I have supported the KDF side of STO just as much as the next person. The only difference is I believe that bringing in content that both sides can use benefits more than bringing it only to one side while the other waits their turn.
Survivor of Romulus
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 5,015
# 26
03-02-2013, 02:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by zionlyth View Post
There is really no need to get so defensive about this conversation. Firstly I do agree that KDF need to have lvls 1-25 done, and that players from the getgo should be able to chose to play either faction.

Where I disagree with a lot of people is that they are asking for KDF only endgame content. Cryptic moved away from this a while ago and made all new content available to both factions, and I think this is a step in the right direction. If you limit the content to one of the other faction you are only (at best) reaching 50% of your playerbase with it.

My comments about KDF Cstore ships are only paraphrasing what Cryptic said. KDF Cstore ships don't sell well. And although I would love more KDF ships as well I can see why they arent jumping the gun and making as many as they do for FEDs. Is it fair? no... Do I understand their decision... Yes.

And before you judge me as a Federation fanboy, please note that my first character to reach max level was a KDF captain. I leveled him back at launch when KDF had no content other then a few enemy alerts are PVP. I own 10 Cstore only kdf ships, and I believe I have supported the KDF side of STO just as much as the next person. The only difference is I believe that bringing in content that both sides can use benefits more than bringing it only to one side while the other waits their turn.
I agree with you that making a content thay will be used by 100% of the playerbase is a normal thing from many perspectives, mostly economical and labor related.
But, I also hope that you agree with me, that if we have mutual end-game content that can be used by all factions that content needs to be more carefully handled and developed. Most of the KDF players complain about the Klingon genuine end game content because of what happened in S7 with New Romulus. Klingons despise Romulans. Since they broke their short lived alliance back in TOS they have been arch enemies. In STO lore the first thing the Klingons did when Romulus was destroyed was to launch an invasion on the RSE. So your average KDF player does not want to help Romulans build a new world. And helping poor unlucky people doesn't go in character of Orion marauders or Nausicaan pirates either.
So if we have shared content, it should be both factions fighting a mutual enemy (Omega Rep.) or giving a helping hand to a mutual ally (Deferi). I don't see anyone complaining about those I mentioned. Most of the complaints of the KDF about Klingon end-game content are New Romulus related.

As far as the KDF ships issue goes - it is clearly a consequence of the KDF not being fully developed and thus having fewer players to spend money on the ships. Actually, Cryptic hurt their own KDF ship sales by not developing the KDF. It's as simple as that.
I personally have no problem of the KDF getting 1/3 of the ships the Feds. get, but the devs. must make sure that in the process our technology does not become obsolete.
Show your support for the Revamped Galaxy Class Exploration Cruiser here!
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 88
# 27 Wallet Closed For Good
03-03-2013, 08:32 AM
Never Again will I open my wallet for STO. I can never forgive them for the constant "More KDF is coming". Don't believe me? Just check the link in my Sig. That's the full story of the KDF and Craptic right there, full of "More is coming" all the way back to 2010 and before.

Crypitc has said "We'll finish the KDF" too many times before.

Wolf!!!

Wolf!!!

Wolf!!!

After Season 2 they just kept crying "More is coming"

Is Dstalh wasn't such a liar (Proof in Link in Sig) I'd be more positive. But for me 10 times + is my limit for lies to my face, let alone 100+ times.

"...just look at my track record for making the improvements that I said we would with the KDF and judge by that." - Dan Stahl
Ensign
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 5
# 28
03-03-2013, 12:38 PM
I've been playing Klingon for some time now, and Cryptic has been promising more storyline content for a long time with sadly no result. They give the Klingons a new ship every now and then. No new storyline, No new costumes,only the same old same old. I know that I will not drop money on a lifetime script. I will also wait like everyone else to see what May brings us, as Klingons.
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