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Career Officer
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 193
# 41
03-03-2013, 01:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by futurecaptain View Post
Are you serious. The mark 12 2 piece omega set bonus distortion field is the last half of the cloaked virus issue. Yeah the virus runner won't make it from the mainframe all the way to the virus console under a 10 second distortion field now but still.

Yes ambush even with the covert trait can never produce a high enough stealth value to do anything anyway.

I find disabling omega completely sort-of the wrong approach as that puts anyone in that armor at a disadvantage to not be able to use the mitigation this buff provides. A simple solution without changing cloak completely would have been to just put a -600 stealth on the virus buff additionally. That would have taken care of omega and anything else the future might bring.


Quote:
Originally Posted by futurecaptain View Post
If you aren't sure about how something is working on ground or need help deciding what the appropriate nerf or change is feel free to contact me in game @johnharrisonlol Like i said I have put in as many hours into ground pvp as about anyone in this game and have logged significant time as a tact and sci mostly.
Awwww Talon Jonas now you've totally busted your own forum disguise here lol.
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Tami, Leader of -FS-
Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 453
# 42
03-03-2013, 01:54 PM
Disabling ambush with the virus is a bad call. It would be fine to remove the cloak bonus to Ambush entirely, if it's easier to do that than to make an exception to Ambush. There is no benefit to the stealth bonus of Ambush, even if you are Covert with a Gamma Tribble. Even the borg can see you at their max aggro range. It's a useless stat to begin with, now that stealth doesn't stack, so it might as well be removed so as to not confuse new players into thinking that Ambush makes them less likely to be detected.

Aside from that, it's a good change.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,890
# 43
03-03-2013, 02:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by futurecaptain View Post
Are you serious. The mark 12 2 piece omega set bonus distortion field is the last half of the cloaked virus issue. Yeah the virus runner won't make it from the mainframe all the way to the virus console under a 10 second distortion field now but still.

Yes ambush even with the covert trait can never produce a high enough stealth value to do anything anyway.

On a separate issue I think I can fix the overpowered stealth in your game for you. All it will require is a base nerf of stealth module and distortion field's stealth values. I believe the goal should be as follows.

A player under a fully speced stealth module 3 with the covert trait can remain under perfect cloak so long as no perception debuffs are on him. This value should be set to +520 stealth (+525 with dominion tribble)

However from my estimates +520 stealth would allow this target to been seen under an enemy players target optics or tricorder scan at a maximum distance of 8 meters. This would be far more balanced as it is no longer a matter of perfect cloak.

Another balance would be to extended the self tricorder scan's aoe range to a 12 meter circle instead of 8.

These values would solve stealth modules overpowered issues.

As far as the omega cloak issue goes which comes from distortion field the mk 12 distortion field power currently gives plus 458 with 9 in special forces and the covert trait. Plus 458 is strong enough to remain cloaked at 15 meters or further and launch cloaked grenades and weapons fire that can't be seen so long as there are no perception buffs up by the enemy player.

If it becomes easier to simply nerf the highest stealth value on this power to say around +400 stealth or lower than do so to make your job easier. Unless removing the stealth from the power all together is easier. The same can be done for ambush although it's current stealth value is a non issue.

If you aren't sure about how something is working on ground or need help deciding what the appropriate nerf or change is feel free to contact me in game @johnharrisonlol Like i said I have put in as many hours into ground pvp as about anyone in this game and have logged significant time as a tact and sci mostly. As well as a fair amount of time as an engy. I can help you fix ground pvp if you aren't sure how things apply in game. Think of that episode of TNG where Geordi and Dr. Brahms were arguing over Enterprise engine design changes he made. You are working off theory while I am working off practical applications
This is quite amusing coming from you Biggles, considering the fact that you use every ground combat bug in the game. You know as well as I do that any stealth rating below 535 is quite visible at a 10 meter range without any detection. And given that you only use catian characters, that means you will be able to see a cloaked player beyond 10 meters due to their perception buff. And to drop it below 400? What would the point of stealth be then? Distortion field doesn't hide a player and a covert player can get a 456 stealth rating with the ability. I have a feeling you just want to make it easier for you to use the ambush + plasma grenade + pulsewave shot bug with the fire team kit. With the operative kit stealth ability useless, you wouldn't have to worry about someone sneaking behind you because stealth wouldn't work. And with the compressed cryo launcher gone, it's now impossible to oneshot a player with a pulsewave unless their shields are down from team focus fire. Which means even under the current conditions, if an operative did sneak up on you, you would have a chance to fight back unless one of the operative's teamates had dropped the shields. Somehow I have a feeling that you have a conflicting interest when it comes to "balancing" ground combat stealth.
Lieutenant
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 60
# 44
03-03-2013, 07:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by majortiraomega View Post
This is quite amusing coming from you Biggles, considering the fact that you use every ground combat bug in the game. You know as well as I do that any stealth rating below 535 is quite visible at a 10 meter range without any detection. And given that you only use catian characters, that means you will be able to see a cloaked player beyond 10 meters due to their perception buff. And to drop it below 400? What would the point of stealth be then? Distortion field doesn't hide a player and a covert player can get a 456 stealth rating with the ability. I have a feeling you just want to make it easier for you to use the ambush + plasma grenade + pulsewave shot bug with the fire team kit. With the operative kit stealth ability useless, you wouldn't have to worry about someone sneaking behind you because stealth wouldn't work. And with the compressed cryo launcher gone, it's now impossible to oneshot a player with a pulsewave unless their shields are down from team focus fire. Which means even under the current conditions, if an operative did sneak up on you, you would have a chance to fight back unless one of the operative's teamates had dropped the shields. Somehow I have a feeling that you have a conflicting interest when it comes to "balancing" ground combat stealth.

Actually reread my post and you are wrong about plus 535 number. Plus 500 is the point at which stealth module becomes invisible at 0 meters without any perception buffs on the opposing player.

As far as the omega distortion field nerf to minus 400 that makes its stealth completely useless for anything. This was just an option in case redesigning the power to have no stealth at all was easier for the dev. And fyi being a catian only gives about 3 meters of extra perception at best. Perhaps you should learn the game a bit more before replying.

My suggestion for stealth modules nerf makes it balanced to where the player can still be invisible with covert but be detected at 8 meters or closer with any perception buff up on the opposing enemy player. This alone for the most part takes away the puslewave from operative one shot in many cases but still leaves the operative kit with covert somewhat viable to those who choose to use it.

Yes my choice of using cats for their mobility over anything is my right as a player. Be thankful the caitian isn't as overpowered as some consoles in space are. I would hardly call a 10 PERCENT chance to proc extra dodge overpowered. The logic is I unlocked the Caitian why build a ground toon without it. If it makes you feel better I have a Lethean kdf guy in the works that can kill you faster than a cat can.

As far as conflicting interests go rest assured I am being objective about this. If I had my way all stealth abilities on ground would be something else completely. But as I said to not make them useless for everyone the suggested nerf is based on my many hours of ground pvp and what I feel would be fair for the investment. In any case any experienced player knows how inhibiting the operative kit can be to the team. I sadly have to use it at times still due to a certain popular ground pvp fleet using theirs since they can beat me without cloak

Last edited by futurecaptain; 03-03-2013 at 07:57 PM.
Lieutenant
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 60
# 45
03-03-2013, 08:04 PM
[quote=mikiiy;8415581]I find disabling omega completely sort-of the wrong approach as that puts anyone in that armor at a disadvantage to not be able to use the mitigation this buff provides. A simple solution without changing cloak completely would have been to just put a -600 stealth on the virus buff additionally. That would have taken care of omega and anything else the future might bring.

Well as we all know omega cloak itself creates many issues that can be solved by nerfing the base stealth value or removing it from the power completely forget about virus running with it. I just suggested two options for the change as one may simply be easier for bort to do time wise.

I just think he is afraid that disortion field power won't as as "attractive" with only dmg resist bonus. I would say go as far as up the duration on it to 15 seconds and take the stealth out for good.

And yes just take the useless stealth value out of ambush to avoid new player confusion. Remember Bort theory = you and practical application = me and the ground community. If you don't want to take my advice I would even say ask certain Federation Emergency Services members who are doing ground pvp boot camp. As much as I despise some of them for their use of past exploits and writing guides to them there are some in the fleet that know as much about ground mechanics in this game as me. Either way get your new stealth values from one of us. Please don't come up with new ones on your own please.

Last edited by futurecaptain; 03-03-2013 at 08:08 PM.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,890
# 46
03-04-2013, 08:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by futurecaptain View Post
Actually reread my post and you are wrong about plus 535 number. Plus 500 is the point at which stealth module becomes invisible at 0 meters without any perception buffs on the opposing player.

As far as the omega distortion field nerf to minus 400 that makes its stealth completely useless for anything. This was just an option in case redesigning the power to have no stealth at all was easier for the dev. And fyi being a catian only gives about 3 meters of extra perception at best. Perhaps you should learn the game a bit more before replying.

My suggestion for stealth modules nerf makes it balanced to where the player can still be invisible with covert but be detected at 8 meters or closer with any perception buff up on the opposing enemy player. This alone for the most part takes away the puslewave from operative one shot in many cases but still leaves the operative kit with covert somewhat viable to those who choose to use it.
If 500 really were the hard cap, wouldn't the gamma quadrant tribble make non-covert players undetectable? I just ran a test with another player ingame where base stealth was 484. The gamma quadrant tribble brings them up to 508.2. Now, under your claim, that would be perfect stealth, yet I was still able to see them at 6.7 meters without buffs and 19 meters with target optics. On a character with a +10 perception trait, I was able to extend the range to 8.9 meters (11.7 when they didn't have gamma). So my statement stands, it's around the 535 range where cloak becomes perfect to everything except buffs.

Removing stealth from distortion field would remove the PvE purpose for the ability, stripping aggro from your character. The small stealth rating on distortion field and ambush has a minimal effect on PvP. And with the cryo pulsewave nerfed, it's now impossible to oneshot another player unless their shields are down.

Quote:
Originally Posted by futurecaptain View Post
Yes my choice of using cats for their mobility over anything is my right as a player. Be thankful the caitian isn't as overpowered as some consoles in space are. I would hardly call a 10 PERCENT chance to proc extra dodge overpowered. The logic is I unlocked the Caitian why build a ground toon without it. If it makes you feel better I have a Lethean kdf guy in the works that can kill you faster than a cat can.
We both know the real reason you use them. Their feline instinct trait makes them overpowered. Catians are the only race capable of abusing the shanty town terrain without cover shields. They can jump into the alley when under fire, then they can scale back up the wall to harass the other team with minimal risk to themselves. Catians are also the only race capable of getting jump flank kills. You know what I am talking about, using the catain's +75% jump to leap over a player's head while firing a pulsewave flank shot. The player has to do a complete 180 turn, and you can just hop back over their head to continue the cycle. I have witnessed you do that countless times. The only counter was rooting the catian, but now cryptic added motion accelerator to fire team, making roots useless against tac cats.

Quote:
Originally Posted by futurecaptain View Post
As far as conflicting interests go rest assured I am being objective about this. If I had my way all stealth abilities on ground would be something else completely. But as I said to not make them useless for everyone the suggested nerf is based on my many hours of ground pvp and what I feel would be fair for the investment. In any case any experienced player knows how inhibiting the operative kit can be to the team.
Yes, I am sure you are completely unbias on this issue. I recall about two weeks ago you said something about if it had been up to you, there wouldn't be any stealth on ground.
Commander
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 353
# 47
03-14-2013, 05:35 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by borticuscryptic View Post
Can you imagine a game that had a Capture The Flag map where the Flag Runner was allowed to be completely invisible with no max duration?
Quote:
Originally Posted by zeratk View Post
Instead of having something "New" or "Different", you go for a Me-Too-Strategy, while the amount of free online games is increasing. So what is left that makes STO PvP better or more interesting than other PvP in other games? In terms of economics, this is a wantonly negligent action.
Just to answer it as well, where the original post can be found.



Quote:
Originally Posted by zeratk View Post
I sincerely hope this announced Redesign of the whole PvP System is coming soon, with more than just tanking and sniping, and more purposes to use Stealth than only Assaulting.
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