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Captain
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 3,158
# 41
03-03-2013, 09:21 PM
Merely because one disagrees with your position does not mean that one is a troll. I, for one, oppose an expansion because an expansion means that they will CHANGE things. Change is BAD. Are we so quick to forget the lessons of S7? Remember when you could just do STFs, and you would eventually get shiny stuff? Now, no matter how many STFs you do, you get nothing but more marks...marks that cannot buy anything unless you pony up your hard-earned minerals. This is clearly not an improvement. Why? Because improvement is physically impossible. The entropy of a closed system always increases: Things can only get worse, and change is how those things get worse. Change must be opposed. The status quo must be upheld.

If you change it, it gets worse. Period. Therefore, changing the KDF will make things even worse than they are now. Therefore, how things are now is FINE.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,908
# 42
03-03-2013, 09:38 PM
FINE =

F inally
I 've
N egated
E veryone else

or

F inally
I 've
N eutered
E verything

DaveyNY - STO Forum Minion since February - 2009
................Star Trek Fan since Thursday Sept. 8th, 1966
There are No Longer any STO Veterans... We're Just Minions who have Played the Game for the last 4.75 years.

Last edited by daveyny; 03-03-2013 at 09:40 PM.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 752
# 43
03-04-2013, 12:53 AM
*sigh*

Khomerex-Zha: The Sructure that grows
Khomerex-Khest: The Structure that dies

Change.. without change growth cannot happen.. anything other then that is really just wishfull thinking.

KDF needs the change to grow..possibly we may loose some really minor advantage. Honest, and fair thinking says that really unlikely to happen. Business is conservative by nature.. they have to be. If something isn't actually broken, then generally its left alone untill it needs to be changed.

Assuming that KDF gets it's tutorial, (which is going to happen) and its 1-20 levelling content (very very likely to happen) and some additional mission content beyond so we don't need to be using recycled FE's to level (*sigh* hopefully going to happen, but not utterly needed..But "I" for one would love to see it) new STO players will be able to start as KDF..currently the hard core KDF player base is outnumbered (estimated only based on previous and hopefully out of date Cryptic provided data) about 4:!. This is a decidedly unhealthy ratio for a persistant territorial PvP (planned). A 3:1 or 2:1 or 3:2 ratio would be better, and by my experience, doable

[Experience in question: Starfleet Command-II Dynaverse play where Klingon Empire players were outnumbered by around 3:1 by Federation players..there were also Gorn, Romulan, Kizinti, Lyran, and Hydran empires, but the two big factions were Fed and Klingon..On the Taldren dynaverse servers Klingons not only held thier own, but managed a number of time to cause the Federation some embarassing reverses..Ships were very well balanced, but Klingon player skill overalll was better..they had to have been or they would have never have done as well as historically they did]

[[Additiional note: I just had to add this, blame Klingon pride. The first time the SFC-II Dynaverse had to be reset was because the Klingon Empire utterly crushed the Federation even though we were outnumbered. I'd like to think the Klingons won most of the dynaverse resets, but I'm pretty sure of the run of the game honors were a little more balanced. On the privately run Dynaverse servers though Klingon led alliances tended to just smack the Federation led factions around pretty handily. I personally got so good at taking federation player opperated capital ships and squadrons down ..with a single light cruiser.. that I started capturing federation player ships instead of just killing them for the additional challange..My fleet faction commander got asked to please move me to a different front because I was demorallizing fed players so badly.. I think ztempest may recall that..I wish I was that good at PvP in sto, but I'm not *shrug*]

Back to this game. With out the draw of quality PvP STO isn't going to be able to draw players in over the long term.. The problem with single faction co-op play MMO's is the creators are absolutly forced to crank out new content constantly. The more players you have the more you need to produce.

Territorial PvP if set up right is its own draw and the players themselves are creating the "content" by engaging in PvP play. In other words, the players themselves create the breadth and scope of the game universes history by thier actions. It's not dependent apon a few writers and mission makers which can only crank out a handfull of high quality missions per year.

The one thing that is an issue with scripted missions is they are scripted. The players are locked into what they can do and honestly do not have any option but to follow the mission makers script. It is not interactive. The programming technology and computer power does not yet exist for that to happen. We are decades away yet for that sort of technology to be avalilble for something like a consumer product computer game. We are still at the stage of building the tools to build the tools.. to build the technology to build the tools for that.

Player interaction though in a persistant territorial competition for resources, or in the case of STO (based apon the current game structure) lovely new shinies to fly or have on our ships or avatars however is possible. But with the current player balance between the factions the KDF just isn't exacly going to be very much fun for other then the barest handfull of good players. Even then, if awards are determined at the end of the day by who owns a specific chunk of territory... well... it won't be pretty. Further more it wont be long untill the smarter of the fed faction players discover that once you have won all the territory that can be won there is suddenly no way to win any more goodies. Because if you all ready own everything and the outnumbered faction hasn't the numbers to take anything back, then your left with nothing to win, and NO awards possible for winning.

Territorial PvP play that requires constant resets because one side continues to steam roll the other is a sign of bad game balance. To rebalance the games PvP in the face of such a situation would require giving the more outnumbered faction some sort of massive advantage. Doing that would in turn create even more problems. You don't want to artificially limit the number of players that can take part in the ongoing "war" to create balance either. That also creates problems. And assuming that such was done as a fix (it has in other games, I've seen it) after the fact, it tends to drive customers away.. angry customers, and rightly so.

Good design of the system for determining awards can offset that somewhat..but as has been proven in other MMO's with territorial persistant PvP (A i o n, and the Abyss) you still end up not only with diminishing returns, and a point where one faction esentially gives up and goes and finds another game to play..... and spend thier money on.. (A I O N, survives and has prospered by adding more content with mixed PvP and PvE somewhat like WOW, but not dependent on either.. players can choose to go just PvE or PvP, or both. A I O N also has a huge development team.. and 4-5million players plus in Asia and the Pacific, North and South America, Europe, Africa, and merge regions such as the middle east. It's still strongly in the top 5 MMO's costomer wise. Thye have sufficient customers to fix issues and make improvements..and they're going to be releasing v4.0 or the game shortly... and its not thier only product!)

In the long term.. Kiss this MMO goodby as it slowly sheds users without gaining new users (word will get around) and revenues eventually drop to unsustainability and unprofitability. From what I see, that would take at about 3 more years.

Cryptic can choose to stick with lock boxes and PvE content with its conventional, limited, and eventually booring arena style PvP, that also has a proven track record in the game industry for diminishing returns unless there is continuous development of it. (example, World of ******** where PvP is essentially an entire second game) Thats simply not sustainable over what should be a 10-20 year lifetime of this game in todays world with the amount of staff they have.

STO has to be not only sustainable, but profitable. PWI needs to make money off of it, and CBS needs to recieve what I am sure is a rather lucrative yearly fee, that most certainly has a number of caveats to determine if it get renewed each year ((You think Cryptic has a blanket licence? My educated guess is "No, they don't.". I would not grant them one if I were CBS.. Trek has proven far too lucrative to allow any other entity that level of control of how the IP is percieved. And there have been some serious bombs, and poorly made Trek based computer products over the years (Simon and Shuster anyone?)

Game growth needs to happen. Change needs to happen. STO either grows, or it dies.
KDF being more then half a faction is not something that is some sort of risk.. in the long term its very nearly essential. The risk is far greater if they don't give the faction the attention it could really use. The perception that KDF is an incomplete faction has a greater effect on the bottom line for the over all product then its actuall state. It means a more complete product, a more polished product, and a product thats ready for more additions and more customers. It get noticed.

Failure to expand the KDF experience, and allow new players to start as KDF characters
is not a realistic option. Cryptic knows this. Daniel Stahl knows this, and PWI knows this.

Change is going to happen. I all ready know I'm not going to like some of it. On the other hand, I'd like it even less if STO were to be failing in 3 years because of far to many ongoing bad decisions in the games development.

Think Big!

Khemaraa sends
Release 8.5 "STO The Next Generation"

Let the happy old bug stomping commence, along with refinement toward enhancing each factions play experience!

Last edited by oldkhemaraa; 03-04-2013 at 01:06 AM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 953
# 44
03-04-2013, 03:06 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldkhemaraa View Post
*sigh*

Change.. without change growth cannot happen.. anything other then that is really just wishfull thinking.

Khemaraa sends

Growth only leads to death, that goes for the smallest living entity to the the entire universe :p

Also Cryptic care less about PVP than they do the KDF, and any "plans" you may think they have are highly subject to change.

Last edited by thisisoverlord; 03-04-2013 at 03:09 AM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 4,052
# 45
03-04-2013, 03:42 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by thisisoverlord View Post
Growth only leads to death, that goes for the smallest living entity to the the entire universe :p
Growth and change are part of life.
So if this game does not grow and change, it is already dead.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 4,052
# 46
03-04-2013, 03:46 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by skyranger1414 View Post
For the feds, the KDF being a farming faction is merely a happy coincidence, a side effect of the Devs inadvertently putting in "too good to pass up" bribes to get people to roll KDF alts. They knew what they were doing, and I bet the Fed farmer alts are helping to prop up the KDF pop numbers enough that Cryptic can at least try to keep the faction viable without it getting ignored.

Do you think it doesn't take resources to create the KDF-side of what little content gets released for them? I can almost guarantee that KDF content (yes, even the grind content we see these days) is considered a virtual writeoff as far as resources go.

For example, when a new cosmetic fleet proyect is released they need to make a Fed and a KDF one, assuming they cost roughly the same to make (they may not always, but over time they probably do) they will get a great return on the Fed one, but may just barely break even on the KDF one, even if that much. However, with Fed farmer alts flooding the KDF they can at least point to the increased population when PWE rightfully asks "why are you not getting a good return on X and Y expenditure of resources?" and "why are you bothering to keep the KDF current with the game changes if its so deserted?"
Do you know their definition of a Fed or KDF player?
Someone who spends more than 50% of their online time on characters of a certain faction.
Thus I seriously doubt there's such a hughe amount of farmers who really count towards the KDF percentage.
Because they actually spend more time really playing their Fed chars.
Career Officer
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 953
# 47
03-04-2013, 04:05 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by misterde3 View Post
Growth and change are part of life.
So if this game does not grow and change, it is already dead.
No, no growth is Stasis, which = immortality

MUAHAHAHHAHAHAHAAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAH AHAHAHAHAHAHHAHA *evil villain laugh*

On Earth, two hundred years ago, I was a prince, with power over millions!!!!!

Stasis works ask Khan :p

To be honest developmental stasis and a focus on retroactively fixing bugs in already live code would be awesome. But not going to happen, I would have been playing this game way more now if we'd stuck with Season 6 until this year, because Season 7 was a horrific mess.

Last edited by thisisoverlord; 03-04-2013 at 04:11 AM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 4,052
# 48
03-04-2013, 04:39 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by thisisoverlord View Post
No, no growth is Stasis, which = immortality

MUAHAHAHHAHAHAHAAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAH AHAHAHAHAHAHHAHA *evil villain laugh*

On Earth, two hundred years ago, I was a prince, with power over millions!!!!!

Stasis works ask Khan :p

To be honest developmental stasis and a focus on retroactively fixing bugs in already live code would be awesome. But not going to happen, I would have been playing this game way more now if we'd stuck with Season 6 until this year, because Season 7 was a horrific mess.
I can respect that.
I can also respect that doffingcomrade is worried the next season will change ways in a fashion he doesn't like.
Just like he doesn't like the changes season 7 brought.
That's okay even though I don't entirely agree with it.

"The past tempts us, the present confuses us and the future frightens us"
-Emperor Turhan of the Centuari Republic (Babylon 5)

Because it feels like you guys don't like the changes because they impact the way you PLAY that part of the game.

The people we're talking about don't actually PLAY the KDF.
They play Fed and might occasionally use them as farming alts (which I don't think of as playing) and even tell us clearly the KDF should just exist to serve their Fed chars as a dil source.

That's something entirely different.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,766
# 49
03-04-2013, 06:20 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by seekerkorhil View Post
You know nothing about me, or any other federation player, and that is why we don't care about your problems.

For the record, you can have a healthy game and community with only one faction. Perhaps we should improve the health of the game and community by removing the KDF altogether? If half the KDF players left as opposed to playing as fed instead that is only a 10% loss of customers.

Worth it to stop the continuous whining from the KDF.
Not for ntohing, given that you have stated in other past threads that you personally enjoy harrassing the KDF in the forums for fun and with past posts from players like Levi, whom troed very hard to undermi e KDF development - I can understand and easily agree with the OP that it appears some players will attempt to derail KDF development as a means personal amusement for nefariuos reasons.
Richard Hamilton (1975-2014)
goodbye good friend. We will see you in the DMZ in the sky oneday, save a shot for us.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 4,052
# 50
03-04-2013, 06:25 AM
Roach, are you typing on your mobile phone again?
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