Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 825
# 3011
03-06-2013, 04:49 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by rahmkota19 View Post
This is the one thing I could not understand completely about the text. Players don't really need more Dilithium earning, all we really need is to get rid of the 8000 refined/day.
Lockbox keys have become the primary item that sells on the C-store as all those who have extra money, have gone as far as they care to on fleet holdings and reputation, or simply have not bothered to start them (or at the very least are tackling them casually, focusing on only one at a time) are content to just throw money at the game to gamble on winning the latest jackpot ship.

For the rest of us whose focus is playing through these grindfests that Cryptic calls content, dilithium requirements are steep, and the only options we have is to spend months refining enough dilithium on our own to complete our holdings and reputation projects, or to hit the Dilithium exchange and trade Zen for any RD we may want above what we can refine ourselves. This is what Cryptic wants.

They are not content to just grab the money that the key-buyers throw at the game. They want money from those who couldn't care less about keys and fluff. And you know what? RIGHTLY SO!

We don't HAVE to spend money if we don't want to and can be content grinding our eyes out. Those of us who cannot stand the grind, but want to get what is at the end of it needs to stop whining about it and do what Cryptic intends us to do about it.

Fleet holdings too hard for small fleets? Join bigger fleets or grow yours. Not getting enough Dilithium per day to advance through projects as fast as you want? Buy som Zen and spend it on the Dilithium Exchange.

I know that what I just said pisses a lot of people off, but oh well. there are people solo-grinding fleet holdings and progressing, so it is not impossible. And a LOT of people have completed the Omega and Romulan reputation grind, even through casual play, so there is no real need for extra Reputation Marks.

There is yet another solution that actually works amazingly.

If you have not completed the rep grinds, pick the one that interests you the most and focus on that one, saving the other reputation content for later. Same goes for fleet holdings. If they blow your hair back, then pick the one that interests you the most and focus on it, leaving the other holdings content for later.

I have read it several times: "Not another fleet holding, That's just another set of projects to stretch my limited Dilithium on!"

It's like the thought doesn't occur to some people that just because they add yet another element does not mean you HAVE to engage in it on top of everything else... It's not like reputation status or progress on your fleet's holdings decays. If you want to try out the new grindfest, you can. The other grindfests aren't going anywhere.

I also have read many instances of "Cryptic is turning this game into a second job I have to work to get anywhere!" I may have even said it once or twice myself, But I have to call BS on that one too.

It only becomes like a second job if we want to make it into one. Fleet holdings and reputation progressions are elements that we CAN participate in. We are not in any way REQUIRED to participate in them. Heck, we are not even required to play the game at all.

I am tired people. For the better part of three years, my participation on these forums has been about trying to convince Cryptic to reach for the amazing potential I know this game has. And Cryptic has spent the better part of three years issueing the unspoken statement that the game is what it is and that's all it is. You know what? I finally get the message.

So we need to stop railing against Cryptic to change this or that to suit our personal needs in an MMO and simply make a decision as to whether or not we want to continue playing. Issues like what this thread was originally about are worth championing, because what Cryptic did with the arbitrary removal of fleet marks without an effective redistribution solution was just plain STUPID and they needed to be ripped a new one over it. And yes it did result in a lot of light being shed on STO's other problems connected with design decisions more than just bugs that cropped up.

However, I do not see anything coming of those revelations. Much of the corrective measures for them would require that Cryptic go backwards and they really need to go forewards.

Cryptic owes us NOTHING. And at the same time, we owe Cryptic NOTHING. They are developers. We are players. This is just a game. If it is not fun, then quit playing. But we need to let go of all the entitlement-driven angst and just either play the game or not. That is the point I came to. I have not logged into the game since the Vallentine's Day Massacre. I went to war with the rest of you in this thread and what we went to war about has been achieved. Time to pull out and go home. I'm not ready to go back in game yet. When I am, I will. It's not going anywhere.
I personally want a Star Trek game that is actually Star Trek. On a qualitative level that could be a lot of different things for a lot of different people. But on a quantitative level, if the developers were to watch star trek and make the game like what they see, then at least it will be a shot in the right direction, as far as I am concerned.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 104
# 3012
03-06-2013, 06:08 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sirsitsalot View Post
Lockbox keys have become the primary item that sells on the C-store as all those who have extra money, have gone as far as they care to on fleet holdings and reputation, or simply have not bothered to start them (or at the very least are tackling them casually, focusing on only one at a time) are content to just throw money at the game to gamble on winning the latest jackpot ship.

For the rest of us whose focus is playing through these grindfests that Cryptic calls content, dilithium requirements are steep, and the only options we have is to spend months refining enough dilithium on our own to complete our holdings and reputation projects, or to hit the Dilithium exchange and trade Zen for any RD we may want above what we can refine ourselves. This is what Cryptic wants.

They are not content to just grab the money that the key-buyers throw at the game. They want money from those who couldn't care less about keys and fluff. And you know what? RIGHTLY SO!

We don't HAVE to spend money if we don't want to and can be content grinding our eyes out. Those of us who cannot stand the grind, but want to get what is at the end of it needs to stop whining about it and do what Cryptic intends us to do about it.

Fleet holdings too hard for small fleets? Join bigger fleets or grow yours. Not getting enough Dilithium per day to advance through projects as fast as you want? Buy som Zen and spend it on the Dilithium Exchange.

I know that what I just said pisses a lot of people off, but oh well. there are people solo-grinding fleet holdings and progressing, so it is not impossible. And a LOT of people have completed the Omega and Romulan reputation grind, even through casual play, so there is no real need for extra Reputation Marks.

There is yet another solution that actually works amazingly.

If you have not completed the rep grinds, pick the one that interests you the most and focus on that one, saving the other reputation content for later. Same goes for fleet holdings. If they blow your hair back, then pick the one that interests you the most and focus on it, leaving the other holdings content for later.

I have read it several times: "Not another fleet holding, That's just another set of projects to stretch my limited Dilithium on!"

It's like the thought doesn't occur to some people that just because they add yet another element does not mean you HAVE to engage in it on top of everything else... It's not like reputation status or progress on your fleet's holdings decays. If you want to try out the new grindfest, you can. The other grindfests aren't going anywhere.

I also have read many instances of "Cryptic is turning this game into a second job I have to work to get anywhere!" I may have even said it once or twice myself, But I have to call BS on that one too.

It only becomes like a second job if we want to make it into one. Fleet holdings and reputation progressions are elements that we CAN participate in. We are not in any way REQUIRED to participate in them. Heck, we are not even required to play the game at all.

I am tired people. For the better part of three years, my participation on these forums has been about trying to convince Cryptic to reach for the amazing potential I know this game has. And Cryptic has spent the better part of three years issueing the unspoken statement that the game is what it is and that's all it is. You know what? I finally get the message.

So we need to stop railing against Cryptic to change this or that to suit our personal needs in an MMO and simply make a decision as to whether or not we want to continue playing. Issues like what this thread was originally about are worth championing, because what Cryptic did with the arbitrary removal of fleet marks without an effective redistribution solution was just plain STUPID and they needed to be ripped a new one over it. And yes it did result in a lot of light being shed on STO's other problems connected with design decisions more than just bugs that cropped up.

However, I do not see anything coming of those revelations. Much of the corrective measures for them would require that Cryptic go backwards and they really need to go forewards.

Cryptic owes us NOTHING. And at the same time, we owe Cryptic NOTHING. They are developers. We are players. This is just a game. If it is not fun, then quit playing. But we need to let go of all the entitlement-driven angst and just either play the game or not. That is the point I came to. I have not logged into the game since the Vallentine's Day Massacre. I went to war with the rest of you in this thread and what we went to war about has been achieved. Time to pull out and go home. I'm not ready to go back in game yet. When I am, I will. It's not going anywhere.
Very well put, it's been a revealing couple of weeks both for players and I think Devs/Cryptic.

A couple of my personal thoughts...

Has any good come from this exchange? Well I'm a little more optimistic now than when all this started. Am I content or happy? Not yet but I'm also not discontented or unhappy with the signs of improvement.

Has it changed the way I play and see the game? Yes, very much so and not all negatively. Will I continue to play? Yes, I'm a trek fan and a gamer for nearly 30 yrs.

Will I now buy the LTS? No, however if I make it as far as the May update then I shall reconsider (Please make it amazing I want the LTS perks).

Like you say "It is what it is". And right now it's still the best Star Trek game on-line, it isn't perfect but it is developing and that at least allows me to have a little hope that it will be in a direction that I want to follow. If not "C'est la vie", I'll be looking at David Brabants' ELITE based project with interest...

Anyway thank you for a very good post, now I'm off to play with my new boat (b4 it gets nerfed).
HOMO SAPIENS NON URINAT IN VENTUM


=/\= 106th Fleet =/\=
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Captain
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 523
# 3013
03-06-2013, 08:31 AM
To the issues surrounding dilithium:

If cryptic wants players to feel like they aren't being sharked for funds then it's finally time to do something about the 8k(+1k vet bonus)/day dilithium problem. When you watch Star Trek on any given series or episode involving dilithium, you'll notice that it's very rare and small in commodity.

Dilithium awards should be scaled down across the board to minor amounts and the cap for refinement needs to be lifted to unlimited refinement. Fleet projects are out of sync with the thematic rationalization of how much dilithium it needs for a project. Why would a recruitment stage even need dilithium anyway? When has a starbase ever needed 3 million refined dilithium crystals? That should be enough to power entire fleets of ships all at once for numerous months. The enterprise ran off of 1 single dilithium crystal at a time for instance.

So for those who spend money on the game it makes sense that a dilithium mining claim would actually be considered a reward. So far they're completely worthless as 8-9 rounds of STF alone is enough to hit the cap limit per day.


Basically I mean not to offend the developers but it is rather lazy to create arbitrary amounts for fleet projects and not consider the logical or the mechanical impacts it has on players. There really is no feasible purpose for dilithium refinement caps.


Ideas:


A It's easy to create progressive tiered methods of achievement. It'd be prudent to allow your development achievement via DOFF management for how much refinement is possible an hour or how much dilithium ore itself is possible to be refined at once or the timing of that completed refinement etc.

B It's worthy to install random isolated chances of already refined dilithium upon completing exploration missions. This makes exploration FUN again. Nobody really wants to visit a nebulae or a random star cluster anymore unless they're EC poor and want to gather data samples/etc.

C Scale down the requirements of dilithium in all fleet projects. Honestly it shouldn't take more than 1k Dilithium to properly stock a Tier3 shipyard for instance. Especially when Dilithium rewards as proposed would award more like 1-10 dilithium ores.

D
Allow more variable means of access dependent on the capabilities of the player. There should be plenty of Ferengi willing to exchange contraband for Dilithium for example. Make the Haggle ALIVE and allow us to propose the confines of the exchange based off of our trade skill. (Make it a worthwhile skill).


In short this would impact the exchange in order to VALUE our monetary contributions to Cryptic. Allow players to grind for it if they choose and purchase our Zen at a reasonable exchange price. Right now the exchange is shot because 8k dilithium a day does not realistically compensate for the overly infused amount of zen that's still awaiting purchase from players.

Please fix the dilithium to zen exchange problem. Thanks.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,767
# 3014
03-06-2013, 08:48 AM
Actually I think Romulan marks do need a little boost, if we want them to be brought up to the same level as fleet marks or Omega marks.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 203
# 3015
03-06-2013, 09:59 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sirsitsalot View Post
Lockbox keys have become the primary item that sells on the C-store as all those who have extra money, have gone as far as they care to on fleet holdings and reputation, or simply have not bothered to start them (or at the very least are tackling them casually, focusing on only one at a time) are content to just throw money at the game to gamble on winning the latest jackpot ship.

For the rest of us whose focus is playing through these grindfests that Cryptic calls content, dilithium requirements are steep, and the only options we have is to spend months refining enough dilithium on our own to complete our holdings and reputation projects, or to hit the Dilithium exchange and trade Zen for any RD we may want above what we can refine ourselves. This is what Cryptic wants.

They are not content to just grab the money that the key-buyers throw at the game. They want money from those who couldn't care less about keys and fluff. And you know what? RIGHTLY SO!

We don't HAVE to spend money if we don't want to and can be content grinding our eyes out. Those of us who cannot stand the grind, but want to get what is at the end of it needs to stop whining about it and do what Cryptic intends us to do about it.

Fleet holdings too hard for small fleets? Join bigger fleets or grow yours. Not getting enough Dilithium per day to advance through projects as fast as you want? Buy som Zen and spend it on the Dilithium Exchange.

I know that what I just said pisses a lot of people off, but oh well. there are people solo-grinding fleet holdings and progressing, so it is not impossible. And a LOT of people have completed the Omega and Romulan reputation grind, even through casual play, so there is no real need for extra Reputation Marks.

There is yet another solution that actually works amazingly.

If you have not completed the rep grinds, pick the one that interests you the most and focus on that one, saving the other reputation content for later. Same goes for fleet holdings. If they blow your hair back, then pick the one that interests you the most and focus on it, leaving the other holdings content for later.

I have read it several times: "Not another fleet holding, That's just another set of projects to stretch my limited Dilithium on!"

It's like the thought doesn't occur to some people that just because they add yet another element does not mean you HAVE to engage in it on top of everything else... It's not like reputation status or progress on your fleet's holdings decays. If you want to try out the new grindfest, you can. The other grindfests aren't going anywhere.

I also have read many instances of "Cryptic is turning this game into a second job I have to work to get anywhere!" I may have even said it once or twice myself, But I have to call BS on that one too.

It only becomes like a second job if we want to make it into one. Fleet holdings and reputation progressions are elements that we CAN participate in. We are not in any way REQUIRED to participate in them. Heck, we are not even required to play the game at all.

I am tired people. For the better part of three years, my participation on these forums has been about trying to convince Cryptic to reach for the amazing potential I know this game has. And Cryptic has spent the better part of three years issueing the unspoken statement that the game is what it is and that's all it is. You know what? I finally get the message.

So we need to stop railing against Cryptic to change this or that to suit our personal needs in an MMO and simply make a decision as to whether or not we want to continue playing. Issues like what this thread was originally about are worth championing, because what Cryptic did with the arbitrary removal of fleet marks without an effective redistribution solution was just plain STUPID and they needed to be ripped a new one over it. And yes it did result in a lot of light being shed on STO's other problems connected with design decisions more than just bugs that cropped up.

However, I do not see anything coming of those revelations. Much of the corrective measures for them would require that Cryptic go backwards and they really need to go forewards.

Cryptic owes us NOTHING. And at the same time, we owe Cryptic NOTHING. They are developers. We are players. This is just a game. If it is not fun, then quit playing. But we need to let go of all the entitlement-driven angst and just either play the game or not. That is the point I came to. I have not logged into the game since the Vallentine's Day Massacre. I went to war with the rest of you in this thread and what we went to war about has been achieved. Time to pull out and go home. I'm not ready to go back in game yet. When I am, I will. It's not going anywhere.
I'm sorry to hear that your spirit and will have been broken so precisely by a gaming company. Some of us are not quite there yet.

Cryptic has a responsibility both to themselves and their customers.

1. They need to produce a product that will develop steady and increasing revenue, longevity, and employment

2. That product needs to be entertaining, enjoyable and fun to it's customers, and Cryptic should treat them in a fair manner just like any other business that depends on it's customer base to survive.

I agree there is potential, they are very close to realizing it with STO but sadly fall short of that mark. They will either decide to make necessary changes that the player base feels would benefit the game as a whole or they will not - that in no way means we should ever stop voicing our concerns or opinions - certainly, nothing will ever change if that becomes the case.
____

The o3 - Killed you good
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 825
# 3016
03-06-2013, 10:04 AM
Romulan/Omega Reputation Mrks = Cryptic's method of controling progress rate of rep projects. Since most sources only pay out a fixed amount per day and the ones you can complete as many times per day as possible only pay out mark point after having you run around collecting 10 of whatever.

Dilithium = Cryptic's method of controling the progress rate of fleet holding projects, specifically for those not spending any money on Zen to purchase RD. Steep RD costs ensure that even with additional RD purchased with Zen, obtaining enough to complete a project might take a few days... Unless your fleet is large enough with enough people actively contributing to the projects...

Both methods of control are clearly geared towards padding out the "content" so it cannot be blown through so fast that participants are left with an excessive amount of time before the next "content" is introduced.

A Casual approach to both reputation and Fleet Holdings "content" with more of an emphasis on doing things that one enjoys (In other words, the approach taken by those whose attitude is NOT "More grinding that I have to do before I can do what I want to do and enjoy doing") will ensure that there will be plenty to do before one can honestly say "I've done EVERYTHING." with the next new "Content" coming out likely before any of the existing "content" is done.

Too many of us have embraced the "I have to do EVERYTHING and I need to do it ASAP" mentality, and we have embraced it so strongly that we want to blame Cryptic for what our own frame of mind is driving us to do.

If they release actual mission content, then too many of us will blow through it in one or two days and be left with MONTHS to wait before the next mission content is released. and we accuse them of being lazy for not producing enough content to last.

But if they do create and deploy material that by design carries us through until they have the next wave of material ready, we accuse them of being lazy for creating minimal content and padding it out for months.

We have BEGGED them for new missions. They have explained to us how hard it is for them to release mission content in a timely manner, and we have responded with things like the one I frequently belted out:

"Foundry authors can turn out way better material than Cryptic can produce and in less time, so what is Cryptic's excuse."

And I ridiculed the response that detailed why it takes them so long, saying "If there's that much corporate red tape in the way of getting stuff done, then the entire process needs to be reworked...

Thing is, the process is how Perfect World WANTS it to be. Cryptic has no choice but to work within the framework that has been dictated to them. So no. The process is NOT changing, no matter how much more efficient it may make things if it did.

It IS what it IS.

So either we want to wait months and months with nothing to do between mission chain releases, or we accept that forward going story content will come in the forms of adventure zones with reputation progression grinds regulating progress, ensuring that the content will last until, or until not to long before the next material comes.

And just a word to those who insist on an increase in the payout rate of marks or in the cap on daily personal RD, Cryptic will make sure that it still takes roughly the same calculated amount of time to progress by also increasing the Mark/RD costs on projects. An exception that they might be willing to make would be lowering the costs on older grindfests to always keep things moving towards the newest material. Perhaps a 10% decrease in costs every time a new grindfest of that type is introduced.

For example, Now that Embassies are in, drop the costs of all Fleet Starbase projects by 10%. When the next holding comes out, Starbases will have the cost will drop by 10% again, and the Embassy projects will drop by 10% for the first time...

If a project costs 100,000rd, then after its first 10% reduction, it would cost 90,000rd.
After its second 10% reduction it would cost 81,000rd. It will take a while before the price drops so far that projects can be easily soloed for fleet holdings. However, it will make it easier for older fleet holdings to be finished up as newer holdings become available.

The game needs to always be moving forward.
I personally want a Star Trek game that is actually Star Trek. On a qualitative level that could be a lot of different things for a lot of different people. But on a quantitative level, if the developers were to watch star trek and make the game like what they see, then at least it will be a shot in the right direction, as far as I am concerned.
Career Officer
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 953
# 3017
03-06-2013, 11:09 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sirsitsalot View Post
Snip
You are still missing the key points here no content (or letting play with stuff I enjoy) is better than grind content I hate that puts me off playing the game at all.

What the problem here is, is that Cryptic have failed to come up with repeatable (grind) content that has enough variation and quality in it to make it fun and worthwhile repeating over and over.

There is no point in them producing grind content if it's turning players away.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,806
# 3018
03-06-2013, 11:35 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by thisisoverlord View Post
There is no point in them producing grind content if it's turning players away.
here's the thing though (and you may not want to hear it): If the 'Grind' content WAS turning players away (and yes, they have metrics that they can see as to retention rate, how often a player logs in and plays; or if someone has stopped logging in for a long time, etc.) - they would probably shift their endgame content creation strategy.

Thing is, if you go by what DStahl has said in recent interviews, the changes in Seasons 6 and 7 to date have increased player numbers and player retention in the endgame portion. If you choose not to believe that's the case; that's fine, but if it is indeed what Cryptic is seeing, they aren't going to change a strategy that they see as validated by their metrics.

In talking about the pending UI upgrades; and the fact they now want to refine the existing tutorial (which has also been mentioned by DStahl in recent interviews); the reasons behind this is also because they are seeing a lot of players not stick with the game past the entire tutorial; or after a few levels; and a lot of the comments they're seeing on game exit polls (by those that take the time to fill them out), is that things are too confusing, or the learning curve is too high at the start; so they're now focusing on that.

The point: if they continue to do something, it's because overall, their metrics validate the practice (and this doesn't mean it's something liked by everyone who plays the game, just that it's more the overall majority that does seem to like it (and thus continue to log in and play/buy Zen) is substantially larger thn those that don't (and quit playing.)

If you want a prime example of this, take a look at the Lockbox master Key situation. On the forums, Lockboxes are reviled (and I myself don't care for them, and have never bought a key by any means, or opened a Lockbox with a paid Master key - but bthat's me); YET, it's been stated time and time again, that STO Zen sales are driven mostly by players using it to buy keys (to use themselves or sell on the EC exchange); and thus is the PRIMARY source of income for STO and is funding the Dev team expansion, and other STO game development; as well as turning a profit for PWE/Cryptic.

Bottom line: Unless you can get a majority of the playerbase (including those that have never really visit or read the official forums); Cryptic probably won't change their plans.
Formerly known as Armsman from June 2008 to June 20, 2012 http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/image.php?type=sigpic&userid=91861979000&dateline=  1340755546
PWE Drone says, "Your STO community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 825
# 3019
03-06-2013, 01:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by thisisoverlord View Post
You are still missing the key points here no content (or letting play with stuff I enjoy) is better than grind content I hate that puts me off playing the game at all.

What the problem here is, is that Cryptic have failed to come up with repeatable (grind) content that has enough variation and quality in it to make it fun and worthwhile repeating over and over.

There is no point in them producing grind content if it's turning players away.
I haven't missed the point at all. I understand it. The point I am trying to make is that by both deed and word, Cryptic has indicated that the cannot and will not a quantity of varried content that we will consider to be "enough".

How much variation would you define as being "enough?" And would that much variation be enough for the next person? By deed and word, there is a limit to how much content Cryptic can create in any given time. They have essentially said they cannot create enough mission content. What they have done is establish a means by which the amount of content they CAN create stretches itself out over the course of how long it actually takes to create content... A few starbases are just now achieving Tier 5 status. By may, both the Starbase and the Embassy should be achieving max tier. Time for the next fleet holding.

The reputation progression is not as involved, as many have achieved New Romulus and Omega progrgession Top Tier. I figure that by May, the majority will have done so. Time for the next reputation progression theme...

My take on the whole progression process is that rather than taking the form of dailies as they have been, they should be player-driven sandbox elements that result in cros-systemic interaction of gameplay elements for a more emergent form of gameplay. Less pre-scripted elements and more cause-and-effect of player interaction, both with each other and with the gameworld. But that's just me...
I personally want a Star Trek game that is actually Star Trek. On a qualitative level that could be a lot of different things for a lot of different people. But on a quantitative level, if the developers were to watch star trek and make the game like what they see, then at least it will be a shot in the right direction, as far as I am concerned.
Career Officer
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 623
# 3020
03-07-2013, 07:27 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by crypticarmsman View Post
The point: if they continue to do something, it's because overall, their metrics validate the practice
Frankly, any talk of Cryptic's metrics are BS as long as they continue to keep the numbers secret.

For example, they say ther metrics are saying people aren't getting enough dilithium but we have no idea how they arrived at that conclusion. Are they counting alts that haven't been touched in months? Are accounts that haven't been played in years being counted? How are the dilithium cap and fleet commitments related?

For all we know there is nothing but a bunch of yes men in the office that wouldn't challenge the metrics even if the system gave an obviosly wrong conclusion of 1+1=7, thus leading to more and more boneheaded decisions.

Hell, their metrics supposedly say not many people use tribble, but us that an excuse to ignore the reports from players that do use tribble?
Most JJ Trek hate = IDIC fail.
Quote:
Most who don't like the new Star Trek either didn't like TOS, don't remember TOS, or didn't see TOS

Last edited by lordagamemnonb5; 03-07-2013 at 07:30 AM.
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