Rihannsu
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,541
After some observations with the Bird of Prey Carrier pets post AI change, I've noticed one thing that does not sit well with me.

Before the AI change, I could, and on a regular basis do the following:

Step 1: Follow Mode (Causes BoP pets to cloak)
Step 2: Face an enemy and approach the target.
Step 3: Trigger attack Command, BoPs would Decloak, Activate Rapid Fire 2, High Yield 2 and proceed to Attack their target. This was very reminiscent of PVP Alpha Strike Decloaking tactics. Typically it would do the usual Shield Drop and Torpedo to hull that most PVPers experience when flying a BoP.

After the AI how ever.. it's become harder because of the change to their AI with the following observations:

The BoPs seem to have different ranges for different behaviors, but most notably, is even if facing the target, they seem to want to Swing off and fire their Turrets in order to get into an Attack Position.. Even if you have them perfectly pointed at a target. And Distance seems to play a factor regarding this. If they are near the 10km mark, it is possible to get them to follow the old tactic. But exceedingly more difficult.

While the new AI changes are useful in some respects, it seems to have hurt a usually very effective play style for the Vor'quv Carrier's Bird of Prey pets. Which originally were the most effective pets for the Vor'quv for a damaging role.

Not quite sure what could be suggested in order to get their AI either changed back, or perhaps modified even further to allow them to have the ability to pull off the BoP Pet "Alpha Strike" tactic more smoothly then they can now.. Only that I did witness the difficulty of the BoP Pet Alpha Strike while play testing my Vor'quv while in Ker'rat on both Player and non Player targets, as well as Moving and Stationary Targets.
You think that your beta test was bad?
Think about this:
American Football has been in open beta for 144 years. ~Kotaku
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 844
# 2
03-07-2013, 01:50 AM
I feel the devs have done this one on purpose so that the federation now have the best pets in the scorpions

Yes I know we can also buy them but why should something we worked hard to get(of the advanced versions were bought) work properly
----=====This is my opinion you don't have to listen and no one else has to read them these "OPINIONS" are based on my exploits and my learning other people will have their opinions and that's fine just don't knock my way of doing things thanks=====----
Captain
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 4,269
# 3
03-07-2013, 02:13 AM
they where the singularly... most noticable, carrier pet in the game, dont know what's changed now,but its not like carriers lack firepower in their own right even before you deploy the support.
Cryptic.
Figure out and address the players path of least resistance to reward. this one thing is THE consistent factor undermining all your efforts. be that crafting, raids or starbase projects.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 844
# 4
03-07-2013, 02:36 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by skollulfr View Post
they where the singularly... most noticable, carrier pet in the game, dont know what's changed now,but its not like carriers lack firepower in their own right even before you deploy the support.
Ah right so just because our voquv has 2 tactical consoles the pets should suck is that what your saying?

**edit - the pets we grinded 64000 dilithium for

If they all of a sudden gimped fleet weapons further into oblivion that they are now :O
----=====This is my opinion you don't have to listen and no one else has to read them these "OPINIONS" are based on my exploits and my learning other people will have their opinions and that's fine just don't knock my way of doing things thanks=====----
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,241
# 5
03-07-2013, 09:16 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by webdeath View Post
After some observations with the Bird of Prey Carrier pets post AI change, I've noticed one thing that does not sit well with me.

Before the AI change, I could, and on a regular basis do the following:

Step 1: Follow Mode (Causes BoP pets to cloak)
Step 2: Face an enemy and approach the target.
Step 3: Trigger attack Command, BoPs would Decloak, Activate Rapid Fire 2, High Yield 2 and proceed to Attack their target. This was very reminiscent of PVP Alpha Strike Decloaking tactics. Typically it would do the usual Shield Drop and Torpedo to hull that most PVPers experience when flying a BoP.

After the AI how ever.. it's become harder because of the change to their AI with the following observations:

The BoPs seem to have different ranges for different behaviors, but most notably, is even if facing the target, they seem to want to Swing off and fire their Turrets in order to get into an Attack Position.. Even if you have them perfectly pointed at a target. And Distance seems to play a factor regarding this. If they are near the 10km mark, it is possible to get them to follow the old tactic. But exceedingly more difficult.

While the new AI changes are useful in some respects, it seems to have hurt a usually very effective play style for the Vor'quv Carrier's Bird of Prey pets. Which originally were the most effective pets for the Vor'quv for a damaging role.

Not quite sure what could be suggested in order to get their AI either changed back, or perhaps modified even further to allow them to have the ability to pull off the BoP Pet "Alpha Strike" tactic more smoothly then they can now.. Only that I did witness the difficulty of the BoP Pet Alpha Strike while play testing my Vor'quv while in Ker'rat on both Player and non Player targets, as well as Moving and Stationary Targets.
This is not new. They have behaved like that for over a year.

The reason you see it more now is because of the change in the AI that tries to make them point nose at target... the problem is I believe the AI considers the turret 360 arc as 'oh hey im pointing nose already!' and the BoP doesnt swing to face target.

That is made worse by the actual flight code on them.. the bops are hard coded to fly in the direction their noses were facing when you issued attack order for about 5km and then turn to target. You can prove this easily enough by having your BoPs fly behind you in 'escort me' command...then stop your carrier... watch the bops stop and fumble and point their noses in random directions...

and have them attack a target. The very directions their noses are facing is where they will fly for 5km distance and then turn to target.

This is the result of cryptic's horrible fail attempt at fixing the BoP AI a year ago.

The level of FAIL these devs achieved in that attempted is worthy of song and tale.

1- To fix a relatively minor glitch they messed the AI so much the pets just sat in space twitching and doing nothing. Yes, as you can guess with cryptic's procedures, this horrid bug went to holodeck live server and was fubar for 1 week.
2- A week later and many apologies and 'oh we didnt catch this bug at all in our internal testing process...despite the fact it happened 100% of times and players in tribble reported it within minutes of the patch being up in tribble' they made some progress. Pets moved. but didnt shoot.
3- days after ... a miracle happened. A true.. miracle. They fixed the pets in tribble. They were PERFECT. The minor glitch was gone and the pets were back to their old responsive selves.

Much joy in tribble.

... it lasted one day.

4- the following day, some dev decided 'yay we rock lets make them pretty!' and went on to add a 'formation flying' code for when the pets were out of combat and under 'RTB' or 'Escort' order.

Do note this formation only would be seen when the team (not the carrier) was NOT in combat.

Yes, that means only during the first few seconds of map start or at the very end.

.... and completely BROKE the pets. Fully, horribly.. broke them. They were back to twitching in space doing nothing.

5- two days later in tribble apparently the same dev tried to cover the FUBAR he did and instead of fixing the mistake he decided to erase the pet AI completely and replace it with the drone AI (which was separate and unaffected).

...and that is why today we have the turd AI you see.

Before the pets could be ordered to attack one target and you could switch to another ....and the pets would attack the target they were ordered to hit not the one you were hitting. Why is this? Well the drone AI has the pets receiving your attack order several times a second applied to your current target... it doesnt matter IF you have the attack order highlighted or not. That is why you cant just order attack then un-highlight it and switch target...the pets will switch to your new target.

It is why you cannot deploy one wing of shield drones to support one ship and order the wing of bops to escort another ship... both wings will end up in the 2nd ship you are trying to support. The bops and drones both have the same AI.

before the bird of prey would remain cloaked the entire time and only uncloak and shoot when it was 5km from its target. It turned nose to target instantly when you ordered it to attack and flew in FORMATION with the other bop in its wing. Yes, that means the bops would all hit the same shield on target together. Very potent.

Now however, because it uses drone ai, the attack order instantly decloaks them (loses the ambush damage bonus), shoots them at full speed in whatever direction their noses are pointing (just like drones do) but because they dont have the insta-turn rate of drones they take loooong half-moon arc flight paths to target...which results in them hitting the target from random directions at random times.

Take a look at this example .. ignore the voquv ship build i was testing...focus on the bird of prey behavior. Watch in HD

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xuQpeQxF2s8
http://media.tumblr.com/160cacdb395f8340dac90864182ebe16/tumblr_inline_mx9yxhItkb1qg9pkt.jpg
Rihannsu
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,541
# 6
03-07-2013, 01:44 PM
The changes I'm referring to deal with Both Right before, and after the most recent AI upgrade, which came from after the Jem'Hadar escort carrier/Jem'hadar Dreadnought carrier lockbox ships were released.

Prior to the patch that upgraded the AI in an attempt to make their(Jem'hadar Carrier) pets perform better, I could force my BoPs to follow. Then I could force them to attack a target, and if I had them aimed right, I could get them to directly attack the target all at once, with out performing the Circle Maneuver they now perform, that you described, cmdrskyfaller.

How ever, since the Patch was deployed a month or so ago, it's even more difficult to accomplish that as I said in my original topic. Like what has been said, I suspect it deals with their aft Turret. (IF it's aft)

Personally, I feel that each pet should have more specialized AI procedures. For example BoP and Jem'hadar Attack Escorts always trying to attack as a Wing on the same shield facings. BoPs being more prone to attacking from Cloak when able, and cloaking after a pass. Things like that. But that, I feel, might be too complex for them to be able to work in.

Not to mention it would be nice if they improved Pet commands to allow for multi-targeting like before, based on when you summon the pets. But that also I guess is not in their plans for Carrier pets.
You think that your beta test was bad?
Think about this:
American Football has been in open beta for 144 years. ~Kotaku
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,241
# 7
03-07-2013, 09:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by webdeath View Post
The changes I'm referring to deal with Both Right before, and after the most recent AI upgrade, which came from after the Jem'Hadar escort carrier/Jem'hadar Dreadnought carrier lockbox ships were released.

Prior to the patch that upgraded the AI in an attempt to make their(Jem'hadar Carrier) pets perform better, I could force my BoPs to follow. Then I could force them to attack a target, and if I had them aimed right, I could get them to directly attack the target all at once, with out performing the Circle Maneuver they now perform, that you described, cmdrskyfaller.

How ever, since the Patch was deployed a month or so ago, it's even more difficult to accomplish that as I said in my original topic. Like what has been said, I suspect it deals with their aft Turret. (IF it's aft)
Frankly, ever since the fubar patch the birds of prey do not fly to target unless they do that idiotic out of the way sightseeing trip. That you used to be able to 'force' them to do so was probably the result of your ship moving and the bops following so their noses were aimed at target to begin with.

Quote:
Personally, I feel that each pet should have more specialized AI procedures. For example BoP and Jem'hadar Attack Escorts always trying to attack as a Wing on the same shield facings. BoPs being more prone to attacking from Cloak when able, and cloaking after a pass. Things like that. But that, I feel, might be too complex for them to be able to work in.

Not to mention it would be nice if they improved Pet commands to allow for multi-targeting like before, based on when you summon the pets. But that also I guess is not in their plans for Carrier pets.
Its not too complex. Thats exactly how they used to be. Watch the video i posted. Its all there. Bops flying in formation, decloaking only before firing, returning to carrier at full speed rather than crawling back under cloak... firing together and hitting same shield.. and keeping their noses aimed at target during their entire attack run (no half circle flight crap).
http://media.tumblr.com/160cacdb395f8340dac90864182ebe16/tumblr_inline_mx9yxhItkb1qg9pkt.jpg
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 06:52 AM.