Cryptic Studios Team
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,363
# 11
03-11-2013, 09:42 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by atatassault View Post
The OP is probably due to the fact that Tachyon mines make your shields more susceptible to damage, and the fact that apparently Power Insulators reduces shield drains to near negligible levels (even when the drain is boosted by Flow Caps). So you've got a weapon which causes a disruptor-like breach on the shields and other powers which are only shield drains.
And if this proves to be the sole difference between the two, it's possible that a Shield Weaken debuff may be added to the aforementioned Science Powers to increase their utility.

That doesn't mean we aren't also considering reducing the effectiveness of Tachyon Mines. Just that they are also a useful case study in their current state.
-=-=-=-=-=-
Jeremy Randall
Cryptic - Systems Design
"Play smart!"
Quote:
Originally Posted by Me
Kurland here...
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 844
# 12
03-11-2013, 09:43 AM
Probably because their a ripoff
----=====This is my opinion you don't have to listen and no one else has to read them these "OPINIONS" are based on my exploits and my learning other people will have their opinions and that's fine just don't knock my way of doing things thanks=====----
Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,416
# 13
03-11-2013, 09:44 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by borticuscryptic View Post
The effectiveness of this weapon is still under review, but is being scrutinized carefully alongside the effectiveness of similar Science powers: Tachyon Beam, Charged Particle Burst, and to a lesser extent TSS:Shields.

The basic premise at the moment is that most players consider the aforementioned boff abilities to vastly underperform, while a similarly-constructed weapon item is being called out as overperforming. And so, before we can consider changing either, we need to come to a thorough understanding of the differences between the two, and the circumstances separating what is perceived as "junk" to what is perceived as "OP" even when both have almost identical effects.

I'm also curious, if I can poll you guys quickly... the Tachyon Mine launcher has been around for a year or so now. Why is it only now being frequently mentioned as a balance issue? Were they always OP, and just nobody knew or understood their power? Or was there a vital change to the overall structure of ships and their associated builds, that threw these into the forefront of effectiveness? I can tell you with certainty that their mechanics haven't been touched or tweaked since the Mine Revamp, which was several months ago, and before that there were nearly no changes since they first went live. So... why is it only now becoming an issue, do you think?
theyre "only now" becoming an issue because theyre really the only way to have a sure way to deal with fleet shields.

theyve always been this powerful but only used by a handful of people (myself included) but as time went on theyve slowly become more popular as the only "sure" way to drop shields now.

i also dont think theyre reduced by power insulators while all the above mentioned sciecne powers are instantly cut in half from the skill tree alone.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mancom View Post
Frankly, I think the only sound advice that one can give new players at this time is to stay away from PVP in STO.
Science pvp at its best-http://www.youtube.com/user/matteo716
Do you even Science Bro?
Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,416
# 14
03-11-2013, 09:45 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by borticuscryptic View Post
And if this proves to be the sole difference between the two, it's possible that a Shield Weaken debuff may be added to the aforementioned Science Powers to increase their utility.

That doesn't mean we aren't also considering reducing the effectiveness of Tachyon Mines. Just that they are also a useful case study in their current state.
i would be quite happy if the above science powers ONLY weakened shields resists/regen instead of dealing any damage at all. it would vastly make science strong again without making them able to kill things alone.

"teamwork"
Quote:
Originally Posted by mancom View Post
Frankly, I think the only sound advice that one can give new players at this time is to stay away from PVP in STO.
Science pvp at its best-http://www.youtube.com/user/matteo716
Do you even Science Bro?
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,192
# 15
03-11-2013, 09:46 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by maicake716 View Post
i also dont think theyre reduced by power insulators while all the above mentioned sciecne powers are instantly cut in half from the skill tree alone.
Not sure about this, but after using them a lot on my steammy, I have the subjective feeling that they hit hardened shields much less. Because one time they drain completely the shields, while the other they just drain a bit (on the same target).
Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 585
# 16
03-11-2013, 09:51 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by atatassault View Post
The OP is probably due to the fact that Tachyon mines make your shields more susceptible to damage, and the fact that apparently Power Insulators reduces shield drains to near negligible levels (even when the drain is boosted by Flow Caps). So you've got a weapon which causes a disruptor-like breach on the shields and other powers which are only shield drains.
There is also the fact that, even in the face of Power Insulators, these mines alone are far more capable of draining shields than an otherwise dedicated Shield Draining ship that isn't also slotting these mines. Mix that strong drain with the aforementioned Shield DR debuff and touching a couple of these is virtually an automatic death sentence.

There's another point to consider, too. There are a couple escorts now that can run 4 Flow Capacitors like a Science Ship would, while backing them up with the offensive BOff slotings and 4 Tactical Consoles typical of Escorts to where you are putting Science Ship like debuffing squarely in the hands of the most powerful damage dealing ships in the game. Combine that further with the synergy of Tetryon Glider and Elite Fleet KDF Disruptor Weaponry or the Andorian Escort's Tachyon Blast console and you're looking at a couple of ships that gain the ability to turn the shields of anything they encounter into little more than tissue paper, and usually with the ship following shortly thereafter.

Anecdotally, with a character having 99 in PI (that is, 50% drain reduction), hitting one mine using a Vesta fitted with MACO Mk X shield lost half of shield capacity on all facings. That's about 5k per facing instantly gone from a single mine.

[EDIT]

After seeing Dalnar's post, is it possible the giant shield drain that we do occasionally see off them might be somehow related to the range of damage that they can do?

Also, as I don't own the mines, does anyone happen to know if Tactical Captain powers affect their drain?
If you feel Keel'el's effect is well designed, please, for your own safety, be very careful around shallow pools of water.

Last edited by thegrimcorsair; 03-11-2013 at 09:57 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,192
# 17
03-11-2013, 10:01 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by thegrimcorsair View Post
After seeing Dalnar's post, is it possible the giant shield drain that we do occasionally see off them might be somehow related to the range of damage that they can do?

Also, as I don't own the mines, does anyone happen to know if Tactical Captain powers affect their drain?
Not sure if the tac buffs affect it, but we can try. When you see me next time moaning in opvp channel, give me a shout and we can test it.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,400
# 18
03-11-2013, 10:20 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by borticuscryptic View Post
The effectiveness of this weapon is still under review, but is being scrutinized carefully alongside the effectiveness of similar Science powers: Tachyon Beam, Charged Particle Burst, and to a lesser extent TSS:Shields.

The basic premise at the moment is that most players consider the aforementioned boff abilities to vastly underperform, while a similarly-constructed weapon item is being called out as overperforming. And so, before we can consider changing either, we need to come to a thorough understanding of the differences between the two, and the circumstances separating what is perceived as "junk" to what is perceived as "OP" even when both have almost identical effects.
The issue is somewhat complicated, here is what I think:

BOFF Powers

1) BOFF powers only provide "damage" (or in as Gecko explained it to us, negative healing. Due to this, if I am correct, this means these powers attack all four shield facings at once.

2) BOFF powers have an associated opportunity cost with slotting & usage, especially at the higher tiers (CPB 3 = CMD, Tachyon 3 = LTC). Tachyon requires you to keep the beam on target for 10 full seconds. CPB is a 5km PBAOE.

3) Associated with #2 these powers are also largely relegated solely to Science ships.

4) The BOFF powers are all resisted by PI. They need a balance pass in face of this skills implementation.

5) The BOFF powers are on medium/long cooldowns.




Concentrated Tachyon Mines

1) Unlike the BOFF powers, they provide (iirc) -5% resistance and 70% the damage of CPB 1, per mine. (Edited thanks to Borticus' info).

2) They have an extremely low opportunity cost to slot and use (1 rear slot, potentially 1 Lt level Tac dispersal pattern).

3) Associated with #2: Therefore any ship can use them, and ships can "poop out" 5 mines every 15s - for example, an escort flying around at top speed, without a dispersal pattern.

4) They are not resisted by PI, or at least seem not to be.

5) To correlate with #5 in the BOFF powers list above, they are on a 15s (iirc) cooldown. Which means they can be used at more than double the rate of Sci BOFF powers.



Quote:
Originally Posted by borticuscryptic View Post
I'm also curious, if I can poll you guys quickly... the Tachyon Mine launcher has been around for a year or so now.

Here's my speculation:

1) Advent of high resistances from Fleet shields.

2) New popularity of dispersal patterns since redesign.

3) Trico mines were nerfed, these cost a fraction of what the Tachyon Mines cost and were the much lower hanging fruit.

(Compare: 1 to 2 million EC vs. 200 Lobi, which can be roughly estimated at 40 to 60 million ECs or enough zen to buy a 3-ship pack - these also had a similar level of power for low opportunity slotting. )

4) More people are realizing what they are capable of.




Quote:
Originally Posted by borticuscryptic View Post
And if this proves to be the sole difference between the two, it's possible that a Shield Weaken debuff may be added to the aforementioned Science Powers to increase their utility.

That doesn't mean we aren't also considering reducing the effectiveness of Tachyon Mines. Just that they are also a useful case study in their current state.

I think adding that to Sci abilities is a positive direction change, as long as PI resistance, multiple caster stacking limits, and potential debuff cleanses are all taken into consideration.


Having them on low cost opportunity mines that can be used with dispersal patterns, on any ship with (in some cases) more than 2x the recast rate as comparable boff skills as well as no debuff cleanse or resistance skill interaction is highly problematic.


Last edited by ussultimatum; 03-12-2013 at 06:54 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,354
# 19
03-11-2013, 10:50 AM
Early on when i got these mines, i played with them. They were that "effective" that whenever we had private matches against other fleets, one of the rules always was and still is no tachyon mines as there is no skill required to use them yet they do significant amounts of damage / debuffing. Spit them out every 15 secs and watch the opposition suffer. Imagine a 5 man team doing it with all of them running the mines with dispersal patterns. (Easily done without compromising team setups)

In my simple head, to me anything that is OP is something that has the potential to kill queues or is an absolute game changer. Tachyon mines have the potential to ruin queues (i.e. completely kill them) in the same way the unintended Jem Hadar shield interaction with shield distro doffs killed the ques in the past until they were fixed. If i was in a loosing team against a well coordinated team, if my team switched over to these mines, we would turn the tides instantly without any player / team based skill.

Some poeple may say that the SNB is OP based on my personal definition, however it is NOT an AOE effect like the mines and other things and can be cured with good team healers minimizing / negating it's damage potential. Tachyon mines are an AOE where the whole team is potentially affected. Who does the healer choose to save and who to allow to die? Bit unfair if you look at it from that perspective. The fully spec'd Grav pulse falls into this category as well but that's a topic for another day.

when i play a healer role, to heal someone affected by these mines is like throwing a cup of water on a raging forest fire.
As an escort, if i see someone affected by it, skill free "easy kill" comes to mind.

Just my pennies worth...
aka NazHuggyBear2

"No, there is no real problem with P2W in STO. Obviously, if you fight against someone with an equal level of skill in the game, better equipment will give you an edge. But usually, it is the skill level that determines the outcome, not the P2W." - Sprinkles

Last edited by naz4; 03-11-2013 at 10:52 AM.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,922
# 20
03-11-2013, 10:59 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by borticuscryptic View Post
The effectiveness of this weapon is still under review, but is being scrutinized carefully alongside the effectiveness of similar Science powers: Tachyon Beam, Charged Particle Burst, and to a lesser extent TSS:Shields.

The basic premise at the moment is that most players consider the aforementioned boff abilities to vastly underperform, while a similarly-constructed weapon item is being called out as overperforming. And so, before we can consider changing either, we need to come to a thorough understanding of the differences between the two, and the circumstances separating what is perceived as "junk" to what is perceived as "OP" even when both have almost identical effects.

I'm also curious, if I can poll you guys quickly... the Tachyon Mine launcher has been around for a year or so now. Why is it only now being frequently mentioned as a balance issue? Were they always OP, and just nobody knew or understood their power? Or was there a vital change to the overall structure of ships and their associated builds, that threw these into the forefront of effectiveness? I can tell you with certainty that their mechanics haven't been touched or tweaked since the Mine Revamp, which was several months ago, and before that there were nearly no changes since they first went live. So... why is it only now becoming an issue, do you think?
Pretty much a reason to explain my view on how people are perceiving this as OP is as follows. When it was first released the tachyon mines were mostly just being used by people who had the ferrengi set on their ferrengi ship and that was before the mine changes took place. Now with the mine changes and the KDF growing as it has been some people have been building up b'rel torpedo boats using these mines. From my experience using them like this they are extremely useful except where most people aren't putting power insulators in their builds it completely nukes their shield capacity with a dispersal pattern being used.

In my experience though usually 3 out of 5 players don't have power insulators in their spec so it appears very OP which compared to tachyon beam and CPB its a lot more powerful for what each of those do compared to it. If it is to get nerfed I would like to see other options being made available to the b'rel in form of a torpedo boat since this was primarily the only tactic to use to get shields down when using the enhanced battle cloak.
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